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Old 05-31-2021, 08:35 AM
 
Location: the Kingdom of His dear Son
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G.Duval View Post
“And these shall go away into undetermined length correction...." -Matt. 25:46
https://biblehub.com/greek/2851.htm
Aionios kolasis in this passage of Canon does indeed mean correction for an undetermined length of time.

The correction is directed towards (5) unwise pure virgins, not pigs or unchaste women (both unclean).

 
Old 06-01-2021, 06:32 AM
 
Location: the Kingdom of His dear Son
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rose2Luv View Post
Search = "everlasting punishment"

Results = 1 verse found (Matt. 25:46)

Everlasting Punishment

The five (5) qualifications for aionios kolasis/ everlasting punishment according to the Master of reconciliation =

1.________________?

2.________________?

3.________________?

4.________________?

5.________________?

1. I was an hungry, and you gave me no meat.

2. I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink.

3. I was a stranger, and you took me not in.

4. I was naked, and you clothed me not.

5. I was sick, and in prison, and you visited me not.
Kolasin as Defined by Greek Thinkers

More important than the visual picture of kolasin as pruning to increase fruitfulness is the fact that prominent Greek-speaking thinkers explicitly define it as corrective punishment.

The case for kolasin as corrective punishment is virtually unassailable.

Plato (c.428-347 B.C.).

Plato Protagoras 324a-324

For if you will consider punishment Socrates, and what control it has over wrong-doers, the facts will inform you that men agree in regarding virtue as procured. No one punishes a wrong-doer from the mere contemplation or on account of his wrong-doing, unless one takes unreasoning vengeance (τιμωρεῖται) like a wild beast. But he who undertakes to punish with reason does not avenge (τιμωρεῖται) himself for the past offence, since he cannot make what was done as though it had not come to pass; he looks rather to the future, and aims at preventing that particular person and others who see him punished from doing wrong again. And being so minded he must have in mind that virtue comes by training: for you observe that he punishes to deter.

https://salvationforall.org/10_Stron...n-meaning.html
 
Old 06-01-2021, 06:41 AM
 
Location: the Kingdom of His dear Son
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Thomas Talbott, philosophy professor Oregon Willamette University

Author of The Inescapable Love of God


According to Aristotle, there is a difference between revenge and punishment; the latter (kolasis) is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer, the former (timōria) in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction. Plato also appealed to the established meaning of kolasis as support for his theory that virtue could be taught: “For if you will consider punishment (kolasis)…and what control it has over wrong-doers, the facts will inform you that men agree in regarding virtue as procured.” Even where a punishment may seem harsh and unforgiving, more like retribution than parental chastisement, this in no way excludes a corrective purpose.

Consider the punishment that Paul prescribes in I Corinthians 5:5. One might never have guessed that, in prescribing such a punishment—that is, delivering a man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh—Paul had in mind a corrective purpose, had Paul not explicitly stated the corrective purpose himself (“that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus”).

Even harsh punishment of a seemingly retributive kind can in fact serve a redemptive purpose.

“And these will go away into everlasting [aionian] punishment [kolasis], but the righteous into eternal [aionian] life” (Mt. 25:46). Isn’t it ironic that the passage most often used to support everlasting punishment is in fact one strongly opposing it when accurately understood?
 
Old 06-01-2021, 08:38 AM
 
Location: the Kingdom of His dear Son
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Canon F.W. Farrar: Aeonian

Of all the arguments on this question, the one which appears to me the most absolutely and hopelessly futile, is the one in which so many seem to rest with entire content; viz. that eternal or aeonian life must mean endless life, and therefore that aeonian chastisement must mean endless chastisement.

This battered and aged argument, if it had possessed a particle of cogency, would not have been set aside as entirely valueless by such minds as those of Origen and the two Gregorie's in ancient days, nor by multitudes in the days of St. Augustine and St. Jerome, nor by the most brilliant thinker among the schoolmen, nor by many of our greatest living divines .

No proposition is capable of more simple proof than that aeonian is not a synonym of endless.

It only means, or can mean, in its primary sense, pertaining to an aeon, and therefore indefinite, since an aeon may be either long or short; and in its secondary sense spiritual, pertaining to the unseen world, an attribute of that which is above and beyond time, an attribute expressive not of duration but of quality. Can such an explanation of the word be denied by any competent or thoughtful reader of John 5:39; 6:54; 17:3; 1 John 5:13,20? Would not the introduction of the word endless into those Divine utterances be an unspeakable degradation of their meaning?

And as for the argument that the redeemed would thus lose their promised bliss, it is at once so unscriptural and so selfish that, after what Mr. Cox and others have said of it, one may hope that no one will ever be able to use it again without a blush. I cannot here diverge into a discussion with Bishop Wordsworth and Canon Ryle, whose sermons need some adversaria rather longer than I can here devote to them; but as they both dwell on the fact that people who spoke Greek interpreted aionios to mean endless, I reply that some of the greatest masters of Greek, both in classical times and among the Fathers, saw quite clearly that, though the word might connote endlessness by being attributively added to endless things, it had in itself no such meaning.

I cannot conceive how any candid mind can deny the force of these considerations. If even Origenist's would freely speak of future punishment as aionios but never as ateleutetos [without end] if, as even these papers have shown, Plato uses the word as the antithesis of endlessness, if St. Gregory of Nyssa uses it as the epithet of an interval, as though to leave this Augustinian argument without the faintest shadow of a foundation, there are absolutely two passages of Scripture (Hab.3:6 and Rom.16:25,26) where the very word occurs in two consecutive clauses, and is, in the second of the two clauses, applied to God, and yet is, in the first of the two clauses, applied to things which are temporary or terminated, what shall be said of disputants who still enlist the controversial services of a phantom which has been so often laid in the tomb from which it ought never again to emerge. How is it that not one out of the scores of writers who have animadverted on my book have so much as noticed the very remarkable fact to which I have called attention, that those who followed Origen in holding out a possible hope beyond the grave founded their argument for the terminability of torments on the acknowledged sense of this very word, and on the fact that other words and phrases which do unmistakably mean endless are used of the duration of good, but are never used of the duration of evil.
 
Old 06-01-2021, 02:49 PM
 
Location: the Kingdom of His dear Son
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Thomas Talbott (God's Inescapable Love)

Thomas Talbott- The Inescapable Love of God - 2nd Edition
 
Old 06-01-2021, 11:47 PM
 
Location: the Kingdom of His dear Son
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Kolasis aionion

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46

The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a 'simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure.

Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with those in Matthew 25:46

"Concordant Literal, Youngs literal, Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham's Emphasized, Scarlett's, J.W. Hanson's New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth's (unedited), Clementson's, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger's Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010).

Concerning the duration of kolasis (literally - corrective punishment), Matt. 25:46 says (KJV),

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal."

Scarlett's New Testament written in 1792 has aeonian punishment in place to everlasting punishment.

And these will go away into aeonian punishment: but the righteous into aeonian life.

The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson written in 1884 renders Matt. 25:46:

And these shall go away into aeonian chastisement, and the just into aeonian life.

Young's Literal Translation first published in 1898 and reprinted many times since uses the following words:

And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.

Professor Young also compiled Young's Concordance, where one can check the translation of each Hebrew or Greek word as translated in the KJV.

The Twentieth Century New Testament first printed in the year 1900 has:

And these last will go away ?into aeonian punishment, but the righteous ?into aeonian life.

The Holy Bible in Modern English by Ferrar Fenton first published in 1903 gives the rendering:

"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life."

Dr. F. Weymouth most frequently adopts such terms as life of the ages, fire of the ages; and in Rev. 14:6, The good news of the ages.

It is a matter to regret that the editors of the most recent edition of Dr. Weymouth's version have reverted to the KJV renderings for the passages containing the Greek word aion, eon, or age.

The Western New Testament published in 1926 renders Matt. 25:46 as follows:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.

The translation, however, has a footnote on Matthew 21:19 on the word forever which is the same word for eternal which says: "Literally, for the age."

Clementson's The New Testament (1938) shows,

And these shall go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life.

Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott (1942 edition) translates the verse,

And these shall go forth to the aionian cutting-off; but the righteous to aionian life.

It should be noted that the cutting-off refers to pruning a fruit tree to make it bear more fruit.

The idea behind the word is not destructive but productive! Had Jesus wanted to emphasize a destructive end, He would have used the word "timoria."

The Concordant Version (1930):

And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.

The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed printed in 1958 says:

And these shall go away into age lasting cutting-off and the just into age lasting life.

Joseph B. Rotherham (Emphasized Bible (1959), translates this verse,

And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life.

The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible copyrighted in 1976

"age-abiding correction" instead of everlasting punishment.

Jonathan Mitchell's N.T. Translation

And so, these folks will be going off into an eonian pruning (a lopping-off which lasts for an undetermined length of time; an age-lasting correction; a pruning which has its source and character in the Age), yet the fair and just folks who are in right relationship and are in accord with the Way pointed out [go off] into eonian life (life which has it source and character in the Age; life pertaining to the Age).

Even some King James Study Bibles will show the reader in the margins or appendixes that the King's translators were incorrect in their rendering of "eternal punishment."

The great Companion Bible by Dr. Bullinger is an example of that.

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46

The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure.
 
Old 06-02-2021, 12:02 AM
 
Location: the Kingdom of His dear Son
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justbyfaith View Post
Concerning aionos, the same word refers to everlasting life as refers to everlasting punishment in the Greek of Matthew 25:46.

So, when we are born again, we only receive age-abiding life?

What happens when our age-abiding life is over with?

We don't have life any more, correct?

What is it like to abide in death?
Aionian life comes out of being born anew. Aionios is NOT the length of His life, but quality.

St. John, who leaned upon the Masters breast, clearly defines it.

This is life aionios that we may know You whom to know is zoe aionios.

Aionios is not the end of His life, but the entrance into where our God dwells in Aidios dimensions of grandeur.

NOTE

Aionios kolasis is not duration, but the quality of corrective transformation by the Father of all fathers.

Last edited by Rose2Luv; 06-02-2021 at 12:20 AM..
 
Old 06-02-2021, 09:08 AM
 
2,029 posts, read 1,363,946 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rose2Luv View Post
Thomas Talbott, philosophy professor Oregon Willamette University

Author of The Inescapable Love of God


According to Aristotle, there is a difference between revenge and punishment; the latter (kolasis) is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer, the former (timōria) in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction. Plato also appealed to the established meaning of kolasis as support for his theory that virtue could be taught: “For if you will consider punishment (kolasis)…and what control it has over wrong-doers, the facts will inform you that men agree in regarding virtue as procured.” Even where a punishment may seem harsh and unforgiving, more like retribution than parental chastisement, this in no way excludes a corrective purpose.

Consider the punishment that Paul prescribes in I Corinthians 5:5. One might never have guessed that, in prescribing such a punishment—that is, delivering a man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh—Paul had in mind a corrective purpose, had Paul not explicitly stated the corrective purpose himself (“that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus”).

Even harsh punishment of a seemingly retributive kind can in fact serve a redemptive purpose.

“And these will go away into everlasting [aionian] punishment [kolasis], but the righteous into eternal [aionian] life” (Mt. 25:46). Isn’t it ironic that the passage most often used to support everlasting punishment is in fact one strongly opposing it when accurately understood?


I believe the teaching of ET is how the church is handed over to satan for awhile. When you reverse the rolls of satan and God, what do you expect? They (the believers in ET) will never go along with God becoming All in All. That is gibberish to their closed minds and hearts.
 
Old 06-02-2021, 02:00 PM
 
Location: the Kingdom of His dear Son
7,530 posts, read 3,020,870 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero 7 View Post

I believe the teaching of ET is how the church is handed over to satan for awhile. When you reverse the rolls of satan and God, what do you expect? They (the believers in ET) will never go along with God becoming All in All. That is gibberish to their closed minds and hearts.
The nasty dogma of unending torture (ET) is NOT anything remotely associated with our Heavenly Father, Abba. God corrects with one objective, change & transformation.

Closed minds and hearts must be awakened by the mighty working of ephphatha.

NOTE

All liars are grouped together with the fearful, unbelieving, abominable. murderers and whoremongers for a trip to the Lake of all lakes, the Lake of Theos.

"But for the rest - the feckless and faithless, degenerates and murderers, sex peddlers and sorcerers, idolaters and all liars - for them it's Lake Fire and Brimstone. Second death!" (MSG)

Dr. E.W. Bullinger, The Companion Bible

“We have not an impotent Father, or a disappointed Christ, or a defeated Holy Ghost, as is so commonly preached; but an omnipotent Father, an all-victorious Christ, and an almighty Holy Spirit, able to break the hardest heart and subdue the stoutest will.”
 
Old 06-02-2021, 07:30 PM
 
Location: the Kingdom of His dear Son
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Jacques Ellul regarding Universal Salvation

Am I a pessimist? Not at all. I am convinced that the history of the human race, no matter how tragic, will ultimately lead to the Kingdom of God .

I am convinced that all the works of humankind will be reintegrated in the work of God, and that each of us, no matter how sinful, will ultimately be saved. Salvation is universal because the love of God encompasses all.

If God is God and if God is love, nothing is outside the love of God.

A place like hell is thus inconceivable. The difference between the Christian and the non-Christian is not one of salvation. Salvation is given by grace to everyone. Christians are simply those charged by God with a special mission. The meaning of being a Christian is not working at your own little salvation, but changing human history.

It is inconceivable that the God who gives Himself in His Son to save us, should have created some people ordained to evil and damnation. There can only be one predestination to salvation. In and through Jesus Christ all people are predestined to be saved.

Our free choice is ruled out in this regard.

God wants free people, except in relation to this last and definitive decision. We are not free to decide and choose to be damned. Being saved or lost does not depend on our own free decision. An explicit confession of Jesus Christ is not the condition for salvation. Salvation is always for everyone, by grace. All people are included in the grace of God. A theology of grace implies universal salvation."

Jacques Elliul (1912-1994)
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