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I'm no dummy when it comes to the Word of God, as you suppose I am.
I know what you are teaching is heresy! Anyone with half a brain can see it.
Technically you are heretic by being a Protestant (just saying) - but that has been factored into the equation, that is what Jesus came to do, to save the sinners and lost, and to restore them - to unite all in one body, but they still having their own individuality
Do Not Pass Judgment on One Another
Rom 14:1**Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2**For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:3**Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Rom 14:4**Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5**One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6**He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Rom 14:7**For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
Rom 14:8**For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:9* For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Rom 14:10**But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11**For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12**So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
1Co 3:10**According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Co 3:11**For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12**Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13**Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14**If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15**If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Technically you are heretic by being a Protestant (just saying) - but that has been factored into the equation, that is what Jesus came to do, to save the sinners and lost, and to restore them - to unite all in one body, but they still having their own individuality
Do Not Pass Judgment on One Another
Rom 14:1**Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2**For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:3**Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Rom 14:4**Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5**One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6**He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Rom 14:7**For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
Rom 14:8**For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:9* For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Rom 14:10**But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11**For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12**So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
1Co 3:10**According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Co 3:11**For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12**Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13**Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14**If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15**If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
And teaching them that judgement for sin is temporary, it will all work out in the end.
Where do you find that in scripture? Do you have any idea how many people will spend eternity in Hell because of this heresy? I don't either, but if it's just one, I want no part of it.
I will not stand before God and answer for standing by and saying nothing!
And teaching them that judgement for sin is temporary, it will all work out in the end.
Where do you find that in scripture? Do you have any idea how many people will spend eternity in Hell because of this heresy? I don't either, but if it's just one, I want no part of it.
I will not stand before God and answer for standing by and saying nothing!
How can you believe that which is false (eternal punishment), merely so you can feel safe?
Live a good life: "If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by."
I do in fact, and quite intentionally, use very strong language about certain teachings I find abominable.
I will not feign contrition on that score. Nor should I. My characterizations of the teaching of eternal conscious torment are perfectly apt and fair, and they are directed as much at me as at any other Christian.
I know how coarsened our consciences can become when trying to justify to ourselves what we think is required of us by faith and tradition. But, frankly, the burden of proof and of a certain seemly reticence falls quite on the other side of the room in this debate.
After all, why should anyone feel the need to apologize for denouncing an idea that looks fairly monstrous from any angle, one whose principal use down the centuries has arguably been the psychological abuse and terrorization of children?
Who, after all, is saying something more objectively atrocious, or more aggressively perverse?
The person who claims that every newborn infant enters the world justly under the threat of eternal dereliction, and that a good God imposes or permits the imposition of a state of eternal agony on finite, created rational beings as part of the mystery of his love or sovereignty or justice?
Or the person who observes that such ideas are cruel and barbarous and depraved?
Which of these two should really be, if not ashamed of his or her words, at least hesitant, ambivalent, and even a little penitent in uttering them?
And which has a better right to moral indignation at what the other has said? And, really, don't these questions answer themselves?
A belief does not merit unconditional reverence just because it is old, nor should it be immune to being challenged in terms commensurate to the scandal it seems to pose.[/b]
And the belief that a God of infinite intellect, justice, love, and power would condemn rational beings to a state of perpetual torment, or would allow them to condemn themselves on account of their own delusion, pain, and anger, is probably worse than merely scandalous.
It may be the single most horrid notion the religious imagination has ever conceived, and the most irrational and spiritually corrosive picture of existence possible.
And anyone who thinks that such claims are too strong or caustic, while at the same time finding the traditional notion of a hell of everlasting suffering perfectly unobjectionable, needs to consider whether he or she is really thinking clearly about it at all. If anything, my rhetoric may be far, far too mild.
I do in fact, and quite intentionally, use very strong language about certain teachings I find abominable.
I will not feign contrition on that score. Nor should I. My characterizations of the teaching of eternal conscious torment are perfectly apt and fair, and they are directed as much at me as at any other Christian.
I know how coarsened our consciences can become when trying to justify to ourselves what we think is required of us by faith and tradition. But, frankly, the burden of proof and of a certain seemly reticence falls quite on the other side of the room in this debate.
After all, why should anyone feel the need to apologize for denouncing an idea that looks fairly monstrous from any angle, one whose principal use down the centuries has arguably been the psychological abuse and terrorization of children?
Who, after all, is saying something more objectively atrocious, or more aggressively perverse?
The person who claims that every newborn infant enters the world justly under the threat of eternal dereliction, and that a good God imposes or permits the imposition of a state of eternal agony on finite, created rational beings as part of the mystery of his love or sovereignty or justice?
Or the person who observes that such ideas are cruel and barbarous and depraved?
Which of these two should really be, if not ashamed of his or her words, at least hesitant, ambivalent, and even a little penitent in uttering them?
And which has a better right to moral indignation at what the other has said? And, really, don't these questions answer themselves?
A belief does not merit unconditional reverence just because it is old, nor should it be immune to being challenged in terms commensurate to the scandal it seems to pose.[/b]
And the belief that a God of infinite intellect, justice, love, and power would condemn rational beings to a state of perpetual torment, or would allow them to condemn themselves on account of their own delusion, pain, and anger, is probably worse than merely scandalous.
It may be the single most horrid notion the religious imagination has ever conceived, and the most irrational and spiritually corrosive picture of existence possible.
And anyone who thinks that such claims are too strong or caustic, while at the same time finding the traditional notion of a hell of everlasting suffering perfectly unobjectionable, needs to consider whether he or she is really thinking clearly about it at all. If anything, my rhetoric may be far, far too mild.
-David B. Hart-
All the UR folks have something in common, they never, ever, present how to cure man's problem. They never, ever, present this,
Acts 4:12
"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."
Never anything about what we MUST DO, it will all work itself out in the end, right Rose.
You know the commandments, don’t you? No illicit sex, no killing, no stealing, no lying, honor your father and mother. He said, “I’ve kept them all for as long as I can remember.” When Jesus heard that, he said, “Then there’s only one thing left to do: Sell everything you own and give it away to the poor. You will have riches in heaven. Then come, follow me.” This was the last thing the official expected to hear. He was very rich and became terribly sad. He was holding on tight to a lot of things and not about to let them go. Seeing his reaction, Jesus said, “Do you have any idea how difficult it is for people who have it all to enter God’s kingdom? I’d say it’s easier to thread a camel through a needle’s eye than get a rich person into God’s kingdom.”
I'm UR, and I believe Acts 4:12 as strongly as you do.
I also believe Acts 16 (a mite broader in scope than Charles).
Startled from sleep, the jailer saw all the doors swinging loose on their hinges. Assuming that all the prisoners had escaped, he pulled out his sword and was about to do himself in, figuring he was as good as dead anyway, when Paul stopped him: “Don’t do that! We’re all still here! Nobody’s run away!”
The jailer got a torch and ran inside. Badly shaken, he collapsed in front of Paul and Silas. He led them out of the jail and asked, “Sirs, what do I have to do to be saved, to really live?”
They said, “Put your entire trust in the Master Jesus. Then you’ll live as you were meant to live—and EVERYONE IN YOUR HOUSE INCLUDED!”
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