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Old 03-25-2020, 08:25 PM
 
4,559 posts, read 3,828,918 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matisse12 View Post
I had that in my post. See in green.
I read the linked article, but missed the green, sorry. Having retired from the medical field, it’s difficult to grasp the rapid change in fundamental policies. From trying to save people no matter the cost, to now considering DNR orders on any Covid-19 patient. I understand the reasons, it’s just such a seismic shift.

 
Old 03-25-2020, 08:53 PM
 
7,665 posts, read 4,401,331 times
Reputation: 17301
Quote:
Originally Posted by jean_ji View Post
From trying to save people no matter the cost, to now considering DNR orders on any Covid-19 patient. I understand the reasons, it’s just such a seismic shift.
My sister called and asked if I knew Italy was no longer intubating those over 60.

Of course, I knew - doesn't everyone read C-D?

I said it's only matter of time before same would happen here. She was so shocked. It never entered her mind. She ended our conservation almost immediately.

"It’s just such a seismic shift." is right.
 
Old 03-25-2020, 09:02 PM
 
14,483 posts, read 12,048,986 times
Reputation: 39622
I understand (correct me if I am wrong) that putting people on ventilators is a last-ditch effort to save lives and 90% of those people do not make it. Could it be perhaps that there are specific criteria that are being looked for by the Italian medical staff, to determine if a given patient is almost certainly in that 90% and intubating is just prolonging their suffering? Like giving a harsh chemo treatment to a pancreatic cancer patient who has only days left to live? (this actually happened to my father-in-law and we, the family, had a lot of questions to ask about how a doctor could ethically do that).

If so, I would guess that age is only one of the determining factors, but a significant one.
 
Old 03-25-2020, 09:37 PM
 
Location: SLC
3,146 posts, read 2,293,137 times
Reputation: 9224
Quote:
Originally Posted by saibot View Post
I understand (correct me if I am wrong) that putting people on ventilators is a last-ditch effort to save lives and 90% of those people do not make it. Could it be perhaps that there are specific criteria that are being looked for by the Italian medical staff, to determine if a given patient is almost certainly in that 90% and intubating is just prolonging their suffering? Like giving a harsh chemo treatment to a pancreatic cancer patient who has only days left to live? (this actually happened to my father-in-law and we, the family, had a lot of questions to ask about how a doctor could ethically do that).

If so, I would guess that age is only one of the determining factors, but a significant one.
I do not believe 90% morbidity on ventilators is even remotely correct. Not able to find the source I saw the numbers in. If you were right - 90% of the serious/critical cases (guessing all on ventilator) in the worldometer site should wind up in the dead column in 4-5 days. That's (thankfully) definitely not happening...

In the meantime, women have much better numbers, so may be they should go to the front of the queue

https://www.epicentro.iss.it/coronav..._marzo_eng.pdf

Last edited by kavm; 03-25-2020 at 09:46 PM..
 
Old 03-25-2020, 10:34 PM
 
2,571 posts, read 1,671,709 times
Reputation: 10082
I wonder when people will start to take this situation seriously. They are still congregating and clustering in parks and elsewhere, without keeping even a foot of physical distance. And here in TX, the governor's declaration that everyone over 60 should be happy and willing to catch covid 19 and die already so the country can go back to normal and the economy can recover, does not help.
 
Old 03-25-2020, 10:43 PM
 
37,894 posts, read 46,590,310 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Purlin View Post
Italy has socialized medicine.

This is exactly how socialized medicine operates.
No. Italy has an extremely frail older population. It's not well-publicized for some reason, but Italy always suffers huge losses to flu epidemics. And it's always the elderly that takes the hit.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...01971219303285
 
Old 03-25-2020, 10:51 PM
 
Location: Mountains of Oregon
17,673 posts, read 22,834,433 times
Reputation: 14481
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChessieMom View Post
No. Italy has an extremely frail older population. It's not well-publicized for some reason, but Italy always suffers huge losses to flu epidemics. And it's always the elderly that takes the hit.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...01971219303285
Perhaps, 'The Godfather' (Mafia) should make some changes in the way socialized medicine operates.
 
Old 03-26-2020, 01:12 AM
 
3,408 posts, read 1,890,838 times
Reputation: 10615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hefe View Post
There are doctors in NYC who are right-now extubating older, sicker, COVID-19 patients in favor of younger, presumably stronger patients because they have already run out of ventilators & are documenting the dilemma through text & Twitter. And we are still some time before the expected peak.
Very unfortunate, but a quicker response could have slowed the rapid increase which was not unexpected.
This highlights how early actions affect the subsequent evolution of an epidemic.
Too bad the mayor took so long to respond to the situation.
 
Old 03-26-2020, 03:38 AM
 
6,797 posts, read 5,568,447 times
Reputation: 17706
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDABaptist View Post
I would automatically exclude smokers, or any obese folks from any medical help. During your life you failed to care for yourself so you are on your own. Here in America that would leave many with the help of oxygen. Since most adults are obese, at least 50%. In my age group here in Idaho, 50-60 years old, it's more like 75%.

That would solve the problem. Save those that showed they cared for themselves. The gluttonous slobs and smokers get nothing.
How about those who HAD those issues, but have worked very hard to overcome?

You obviously haven't tried to quit a substance that is more addicting than cocaine and heroin.

You obviously have never struggled to lose 30#.

You obviously have not had to medications or have steroids, which causes a rise in blood sugar, causes ravenous hunger and allows for weight gain.

You also apparently have never been poor enough to where 2 bags of $0.69 bags of chips MAY be easier to purchase than a $1.29 head of lettuce, and will last longer.

Medications to treat health conditions I have caused weight gain. Sure the heavier I got the more I ate...call it what it is... emotional eating.

I was pre-diabetic for a decade. I mushroomed up to 320# ( on a male 5'5" frame...yep short and fat). When I turned diabetic 2 years ago, I already knew I had to do something about my weight, but then I got serious about losing my excess weight.*

I also fir a decade was hypOglycemic, meaning my sugar dropped to levels so low I'd pass out if I didn't get something to eat, too low and the bad/quick way to raise it was to eat a candy bar as fast as I could before passing out, shaky and dripping with sweat.

The first 30# came off as soon as I started on a sugar control med. Why? It was water weight...that NEVER would have come off without a sugar control med, as high sugar drives thirst in an attempt to dilute sugar in the blood, I was drinking a bottle of water about every 20minutes.
I spent 10 hours in a course to learn how to eat as a diabetic. It's not ALL veggies, but limiting carbs to a set determined amount per day via the exchanges allowed as calculated per Individual in the course ( I'm allowed 5-6 a day). I learned which foods are "free foods", broccoli is one, fortunately I love broccoli, fill up half my plate please!
The next 30# came off with the diet changes. Then I hit a road block. I have bad back, hips and knees, so exercise is limited. **
But adding more walking and activities that are mild and non-injury producing for me, and vastly reducing any intake of food at all (basically starving myself on a salad and a sandwich a day) eventually slowly helped lose another 40.

So, over a two year period I lost 100#.
YOU try to lose 100#!

I still need to lose about another 30-40#, VERY hard to do.
If it makes you feel ANY BETTER, I just had breakfast, it is 6:00am my time. I had: spinach, spring lettuce, julienned carrots, 4 cherry tomatoes, a diced slice of ham, a diced slice of Swiss cheese, what was left of the Bleu cheese crumblies, and to top it off, french dressing and pepper.
That will be all until dinner, which Tonight will be corned beef, cabbage and carrots and onions.
IF I'm ravenous hungry between? Ill have 1/2 a roast beef sandwich.

Lastly I'm a "reformed smoker". I grew up with a mother who smoked in the late 50s and 60s, as
It was more "fashionable" then. In the 70s, my teen years growing up, they were just starting to pass laws against tv and magazines. But I picked it up from mother, and was basically a lifelong smoker, quit for 10 years now. ***

*: You DO NOT HAVE TO BE FAT to be diabetic. Mary Tyler Moore weighed no more than 110# EVER in her life, and had diabetes.

** I suppose because I have: scoliosis osteoporosis spinal stenosis and degenerative disc disease in my back YOU would automatically disinclude me from being"savable"?? Knees and hips need steroid shot s every 6 mos, Again, I suppose you would automatically disinclude from " savability??

*** Does a 'reformed smoker' count among those worth saving?

And:**** ( no **** in the post, this is an addition):
Because of my health problems, I DO draw SSDI, but I am also allowed to work and earn up to a certain amount before they take away my SSDI check per month. It's kinda like taking early SS.
I suppose YOU would consider me "expendable",' even though you might want to check into the hotel I work at for a night's rest, and you'd like me to check you in. Or is that job only fir the young, healthy whippersnappers??

I certainly don't wish you bad health, but there's a phrase attributed to native Americans you'd do well to learn and contemplate:

"Great Spirit, grant that I may not criticize my neighbor until I have walked a mile in his moccasins"


Last edited by galaxyhi; 03-26-2020 at 04:03 AM..
 
Old 03-26-2020, 05:19 AM
 
6,797 posts, read 5,568,447 times
Reputation: 17706
Also, JohnDaBaptist ( and anyone like him):

Choosing NOT to save a patient for obesity Or smoking is NO DIFFERENT than declaring "you are 60or over, you die".

I'm in NY, and Gov. Andrew Cuomo gives a daily address.

He said " we need 30,000 ventilators, and you are sending 4,000. YOU tell the other 26,000 people they have to die".

Suppose only those will with a $1billion net worth ON HAND IN CASH get chosen for the ventilators?

Whatever category or criteria that gets choosen "to die", if YOU JOHNDABAPTIST were one of them and not ready to die, YOU'D be singing the tune of "save me, oh doctor save me!"

While the doctor may be saying " Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn!"

Good luck to all who get exposed, have it or will get it. ALL OF YOU/THEM, not just some arbitrary select few.

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