Italy no longer intubating those over 60 years old (70+, pension plan, grandparent)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I disagree with everything you say in your post #160.
So speak for yourself and not "even most of us" as you stated.
I agree with kavm at his/her post #158.
And your last sentence in your post #160 is condescending and patronizing.
And that is just fine. You can disagree. Why would I think that everyone is going to agree with me? Why would I even care?
As for being condescending -- she is into the 'what ifs'. She needs to know that there are people who are very concerned about the virus and are not exactly thrilled about (perhaps) dying due to lack of enough and proper medical equipment, but who are not at all panicked. And I hope she has a friend or relative who loves her and can help her.
I live in a 55+ retirement community. Some residents are panicked. Some are not. We're all a little afraid, OF COURSE. And when we meet up in the halls, we are helping each other -- and even laughing together. (Older people can have very 'dark' senses of humor -- primarily about themselves and their own dying and death but also about others -- particularly others they don't like -- LOLOLOLOL.)
This virus and the scare are not 'larks'. I don't know anyone who is just merrily tip-toeing through the virus tulips. But there is a lot of be said about accepting what we have almost zero control over. And I have no intentions of spending what could be my last days/weeks/months working myself up into a frenzy for absolutely no reason.
The military (our government) pretty much encouraged smoking, it was the only way for most soldiers to relieve the stress of sitting in a rice patty with bullets flying over your head.
But apparently now you are expendable according to that one commenter.
Well Said, Brother...
Good Health to you & your beloved Family.
I picked up a pizza this afternoon in a nearby restaurant, and when I entered, there was another guy already in the maybe 10' x 10' room. He gave me a look like I was Freddie Krueger, who knows if I gave him the same look (I was busy sanitizing my hands, I bring my own bottle with now, and apply it before and after entering places where other people have been / will be), and we walked past each other as not-closely as possible. What a shame that we have to fear each other right now.
As to the ventilator "triage", these things are (supposedly) done all the time on the battlefield (quickly determining who is worth spending time to save, and who is not), I imagine it's a necessity of war. Hopefully it will not come to that in most places. And in those places it will come to that, I imagine it will be done according to a "checklist" and the patient's age will become part of that calculus, as it should be. Personally, I think that if a choice has to be made, it will be done using the best analysis of two questions: "Who is the most likely to die if they DON"T get intubated?", and "Who is the most likely to live if they DO get intubated?". But it's the doctors and nurses who will be making this decision, and it's going to haunt them longer than it will the patients who are denied lifesaving care.
God Bless the folks on the front lines putting themselves at risk every day because "it's their job". And that includes the counter people at my favorite pizza joint.
I picked up a pizza this afternoon in a nearby restaurant, and when I entered, there was another guy already in the maybe 10' x 10' room. He gave me a look like I was Freddie Krueger, who knows if I gave him the same look (I was busy sanitizing my hands, I bring my own bottle with now, and apply it before and after entering places where other people have been / will be), and we walked past each other as not-closely as possible. What a shame that we have to fear each other right now.
As to the ventilator "triage", these things are (supposedly) done all the time on the battlefield (quickly determining who is worth spending time to save, and who is not), I imagine it's a necessity of war. Hopefully it will not come to that in most places. And in those places it will come to that, I imagine it will be done according to a "checklist" and the patient's age will become part of that calculus, as it should be. Personally, I think that if a choice has to be made, it will be done using the best analysis of two questions: "Who is the most likely to die if they DON"T get intubated?", and "Who is the most likely to live if they DO get intubated?". But it's the doctors and nurses who will be making this decision, and it's going to haunt them longer than it will the patients who are denied lifesaving care.
God Bless the folks on the front lines putting themselves at risk every day because "it's their job". And that includes the counter people at my favorite pizza joint.
Good post.
A doctor/administrator of a hospital in Iowa (or some nearby state in that area) already admitted that they are doing that. "Difficult decisions have to be made. We look at who has the best chance of surviving and who has the most years ahead of them." And that was days ago. Cuomo in NY has alluded to it. I'm sure it's happening. (I LIVE in an apartment complex that has medical students, interns and residents who take classes/work at the local public hospital! AND do their mandatory shifts in The ER. Makes life VERY interesting here! LOL But no one is giving anyone nasty looks. But then not everyone is smiling either. :-) )
I've been saying for a long time that we should not watch or listen to the news very much. CNN, for example, has become more entertainment than anything else. Since it's 24/7 it is very much invested in getting us to watch 24/7. And I think (just my opinion, I know) that its fueling the fear and anxiety -- and hysteria. (And I tend to like CNN -- but less and less over the past 3.5 years. I think it's trying too hard to shape American politics, when all it should be doing is reporting the news.)
I am NOT saying that the virus isn't serious. It is. And if we get sick, it could very well be the lack of proper medical care that kills us and not the virus itself. But, for right now, I think I'm pretty correct when I say that all of us here on the Retirement forum -- well, those of us who are fully retired -- are safe at home, are warm, have enough food, have enough money to pay for extras like a computer and Internet, and are generally doing fine. Right now -- and, as far as we know right now, into the future. Speculating on what will happen to us in the future IF we get the virus is useless. When I find myself doing that, I pick up a good book or watch something funny on Amazon Prime/Hulu or do housework (I love to do housework! LOL). I did have a long-time friend who was a daily phone buddy but he has become so anxious, I can't talk to him anymore -- he gets me SO nervous with all his "what ifs".
Most of us here have encountered death in some way -- either we've either almost died (from an illness or injury/accident) or we've lost more than one loved one to death. So I don't think it's 'bravado' when we say that we're not afraid. (I'd like to make the great distinction that dying can be very unnecessarily painful in The US, but death itself is no big deal.)
And just for the record, 15 months ago, I was sent home from The ER when I had pneumonia and bronchitis (never before knew that we can get both at the same time). For days, I laid in bed, trying to breathe and listening to something very much akin to a death rattle. It was painful and uncomfortable, and I was just grateful that I had "all my affairs in order" -- altho' I did wish I had had a few more affairs (bad joke). So I think some of us -- even most of us -- who say we are not afraid are being truthful.
We ARE very fortunate. And I wish you well. I hope you have people around you who love you and who you can talk with and have a better perspective on this really sad situation.
Fran66,
I appreciate your kind wishes and sincerely thank you for them. I wish you and everyone reading the same.
I do think you misunderstood my point and about me. It is completely understandable on internet. But, I will point it out for clarification -
I do not watch any television, CNN or otherwise. Get my news from good quality outlets - The Atlantic, New Yorker, New York Times, Washington Post, The Guardian, South China Morning post (a recent addition) and scientific outlets like Medcram, etc. I am surrounded by my loving wife - and neither of us is panicked. We are in the late 50s, in above average shape (climbed to Mount Everest base camp about 15 months ago doing better than the average hiker), and climb the mountain nearby with elevation difference of 2500 ft 2 to 5 times a week). None of that makes us invulnerable to this virus or another, but we have no reason to be panicked and are not. I volunteer to shop for groceries for older and more vulnerable people in our building. Do we fear it nonetheless - absolutely, but panicked - not yet
My point was broader. I believe that the politicians suggesting that bringing the economy back up and if some old folks die in the process - that's fine (I am paraphrasing not too carefully what I read) or the old people need to sacrifice (or, in essence - we need to sacrifice some old people) to hold up the economy, etc. are heartless and thoughtless. I have no respect for them. If and when we run up against the capacity and cannot save people - so be it. But, to not strive the utmost to minimize that situation so that we can bring up the economy, I do not agree. That is not a cost I am willing to pay.
Of course, there are some seniors here also making statements full or bravado how they do not mind going. Easy to say on City-Data, but be honest and think. You are gasping for air but are committing to not seek medical attention in the hospital? If you are headed to the hospital, you are consuming the medical capacity in some for already. Yes - when capacity run out and we are on the outside, what will happen will happen. But, I can't think of many (nor am I encouraging) who would not seek medical help if it came to that, regardless of the bravado on the internet forum.
This has been on my mind for about three weeks now and in many of our cases it is not bravado. Many of us would not have a choice. I’m 60 with other health issues as well as asthma and I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t make it thru this thing without medical attention but I know I’d be triaged out when it comes to that. I don’t mind the thought of dying but it scares me to think how much it will hurt and I wonder if the hospitals will be too busy to give pain meds to those they can’t intubate. All I know to do is stay away from people and I have cough syrup with guafenesin and an inhaler in case I get sick. And wash my hands. And know that it’s nearly inevitable because I can’t hide forever.
... I believe that the politicians suggesting that bringing the economy back up and if some old folks die in the process - that's fine (I am paraphrasing not too carefully what I read) or the old people need to sacrifice (or, in essence - we need to sacrifice some old people) to hold up the economy, etc. are heartless and thoughtless. I have no respect for them. If and when we run up against the capacity and cannot save people - so be it. But, to not strive the utmost to minimize that situation so that we can bring up the economy, I do not agree. That is not a cost I am willing to pay.
Well said and nothing to be added. Thank you for your clarity.
This has been on my mind for about three weeks now and in many of our cases it is not bravado. Many of us would not have a choice. I’m 60 with other health issues as well as asthma and I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t make it thru this thing without medical attention but I know I’d be triaged out when it comes to that. I don’t mind the thought of dying but it scares me to think how much it will hurt and I wonder if the hospitals will be too busy to give pain meds to those they can’t intubate. All I know to do is stay away from people and I have cough syrup with guafenesin and an inhaler in case I get sick. And wash my hands. And know that it’s nearly inevitable because I can’t hide forever.
stepka,
First of all, there are no inevitables in this. Some, hopefully many, very vulnerable will survive and some not so vulnerable will not. There is a randomness to every disease. Do the best you can to keep yourself safe, and things will work out.
None of needs to line up, definitely not feel any pressure to line up in the sacrificial line. It is possible, perhaps even likely, that these situations can arise. But how, where and when is unclear. You may be in an area where there is available capacity to treat whereas someone else in a different area has is not so lucky. There is the luck of the draw and we all need to accept it with equanimity that you express.
Be careful, prudent and responsible and things will hopefully work just fine - for you and most of us. Yes, people with underlying medical issues are more vulnerable - but that's not 100% chance. Even the higher mortality rates in advanced age are between 15-20%. That means that 80-85% survive it.
There is progress taking place. Even if infection were inevitable in the long run, there is progress taking place. Please keep your morale and outlook up!
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
