Coronavirus in Massachusetts (Boston: how much, homes, schools)

[redplum33]

Originally Posted by htfdcolt

...it's all about personal risk tolerance at this point.

That's short-sighted. What others do affects everyone.

[OutdoorLover]

Originally Posted by timberline742

What do you want them to do? Even with high rates of infection, if they've been vaccinated they're not likely to get severely sick, which is a completely different situation from last year.

If they choose not to get vaccinated, that's on them. All of society shouldn't change their behaviors for individuals purposely engaging in high risk activities like not getting vaccines.

Yes, getting upset about it doesn't do much good. First you need to take care of your own vaccinations, masks and social distancing. Then you can lobby your trusted, immediate family. But beyond that, you might as well tread carefully with other people. The people that are still in denial at this point, by and large, have taken up hardened positions. And just trying to push harder won't make them more convinced, it will only make them more angry, which is counterproductive.

[rach5]

Data from MA (over 400 of the 1000+ in the hospitals with covid are vaccinated), and a call for for action now by others than myself: https://www.boston.com/news/coronavi...?p1=hp_primary
It is simply not true that covid does not contribute to the health care crisis in significant ways. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/08/o...gan-surge.html
AND if you extrapolate from current cases to hospitalization increases 1-2 weeks down the road, THAT is when true **** will hit the fan. The covid data for RI https://ridoh-covid-19-response-hosp...ub.arcgis.com/
Dec 6 2020 hospital beds 494, ICU 48, vent 25
Dec 6 2021 hospital beds 226, ICU 35, vent 18
Last year Dec 6, Rhode island was at its peak. Now we are far from a peak, without any mitigation and with a worse staffing crisis. How can any governor, or Director of Public Health not look at this and despair?
We know how to stop this, at least pre-Omicron. The problem with doing anything here now is that our government has screwed up our covid response from the very beginning, in almost all dimensions (testing, masking, vaccination, lockdowns). We are quite literally the world leaders in how not to do pandemic response.

[msRB311]

Apparently at the schools in my town sports are effectively banned at recess this week and a 6-foot rule has been implemented on the outdoor playground. Students were also told at PE that in the very near future they were going to be doing yoga videos 6 ft apart instead of playing active sports. I think yoga is wonderful for children but not for the entire winter....some parents are upset about this and voicing their opinion to the school. I get they want to keep kids/teachers safe but hard to see us going back to this.

[htfdcolt]

Originally Posted by redplum33

That's short-sighted. What others do affects everyone.

I was idealistic like you during much of 2020. I assumed that the mask mandates and restrictions were a stopgap until vaccines came out, and that like me, everyone would be chomping at the bit to get vaccinated to get out of the mess. Almost a year into the vaccine rollout now, and seeing the stubbornness of a significant minority of the population, I don't think there's any other pragmatic choice. At some point, Darwinism will do its thing on the unvaxxed, as harsh as that may be to consider.

[timberline742]

Originally Posted by htfdcolt

I was idealistic like you during much of 2020. I assumed that the mask mandates and restrictions were a stopgap until vaccines came out, and that like me, everyone would be chomping at the bit to get vaccinated to get out of the mess. Almost a year into the vaccine rollout now, and seeing the stubbornness of a significant minority of the population, I don't think there's any other pragmatic choice. At some point, Darwinism will do its thing on the unvaxxed, as harsh as that may be to consider.

It is harsh, but what else can we personally or societally do? You can't (ala early 1900s smallpox) forcibly inject into the arms of people.

We've made if very difficult to travel, attend events, in some cases be employed, etc without being vaccinated, but what else?

I don't see punishing the people that did get the vaccine as a solution for the actions of those who did not being feasible or wise.

I've heard several doctors speak to things like the travel ban and almost all call it "political theatre". By the time new variants are detected they've already been spreading across the globe for a month. It's just a feel good measure without benefit that harms individuals.

[msRB311]

I am continuing to see things cancelled and rolled back the past few weeks...so yes in some ways it feels like everyone is being 'punished.' The other thing to consider is that just because someone is vaccinated doesn't mean they still won't get it. The under 5 years old crowd still cannot get vaccinated.

The things that make little sense to me are this - a church play at my kids school was cancelled. Ok fine...but church is still open and masks are optional. Cancel that play but anyone can go to the movies that afternoon or get on a plane and you don't have to be vaccinated or show a negative test, etc. I also had to show proof that i was vaccinated to go to a bruins game but i was with a big group of kids 7-8 year old and under who i know weren't all vaxxed. At restaurants you don't have a to show a covid card, to get a plane or go to the mall- no card....but to keep my 100% remote job where i'm at home I had to get vaxxed.

A LOT of this doesn't make sense.

[htfdcolt]

Originally Posted by timberline742

It is harsh, but what else can we personally or societally do? You can't (ala early 1900s smallpox) forcibly inject into the arms of people.

We've made if very difficult to travel, attend events, in some cases be employed, etc without being vaccinated, but what else?

I don't see punishing the people that did get the vaccine as a solution for the actions of those who did not being feasible or wise.

I've heard several doctors speak to things like the travel ban and almost all call it "political theatre". By the time new variants are detected they've already been spreading across the globe for a month. It's just a feel good measure without benefit that harms individuals.

Agree with this 100%. I was listening to an NPR show over the weekend, where this kind of thing can literally disincentivize scientists in non-Western countries from full disclosure of the genome sequencing results. Apparently happened with India and the Delta variant. Plus as you say, it unfairly penalizes those countries where the discoveries were made, while in reality the damn thing has already spread all over.

A much more egalitarian solution would be to required proof of vaccination mandatory for all air travel, global or domestic.

[id77]

Originally Posted by rach5

So if you feel safe from Delta and Omicron and long covid and only care about your personal risk tolerance, are you also comfortable not being able to get treatment in a timely fashion for yourself or your loved ones if you get into a bad car accident, or if you get cancer, or a heart attack, or appendicitis, or simply pain from a kidney stone...? The tolerance for illness and death, and trauma for our medical workers is astounding to me. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/08/o...gan-surge.html
We are well beyond only mask mandates stopping this trajectory, unfortunately (the UK already instituted mask mandates in shops and transportation early last week - they are just expanding it now combined with other measures like work from home; you just know we are in trouble when even Boris Johnson is more aggressive than the US; here is an article from Nov 30 https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ring-isolation).

Tug at all the emotion and anxiety strings you want, it makes zero difference. You're asking for a solution where our society/leadership comes together and fights this on a unified front that looks out for everyone. Those solutions are all DOA -- we're not a united society. Half of this nation sleeps well at night knowing the other half is suffering and/or dying.

The realistic path forward is we have a slow burn of another several hundred thousand deaths until those who remain have a strong enough resistance/immunity to this that the mutations slow down and the risk of death or permanent damage wanes (but will never go away completely). Managing personal risk tolerance is the only lever of control an individual has.

[redplum33]

Originally Posted by redplum33

That's short-sighted. What others do affects everyone.

Originally Posted by htfdcolt

I was idealistic like you during much of 2020. I assumed that the mask mandates and restrictions were a stopgap until vaccines came out, and that like me, everyone would be chomping at the bit to get vaccinated to get out of the mess. Almost a year into the vaccine rollout now, and seeing the stubbornness of a significant minority of the population, I don't think there's any other pragmatic choice. At some point, Darwinism will do its thing on the unvaxxed, as harsh as that may be to consider.

But even with that perspective (which I don't support), it's so much more complicated than "Darwinism will do its thing on the unvaxxed". As I've pointed out many times, there's bad info out there. There are tens of millions of "fully vaccinated" people who are essentially the equivalent of unvaccinated, and these people are living their lives like it's 2019 because they believe they're protected.


I realize that you don't agree with "essentially the equivalent of unvaccinated", and I don't want to go back to arguing about that. I'll acknowledge that some unboostered people may have still have a small amount of protection after 7 months, but it's a very bad situation..and nitpicking isn't helpful to anyone.


msRB311 is upset about her kids doing yoga instead of active sports. I wouldn't be surprised at all if she finds out they're going back to distance learning soon. It's getting ugly out there.


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