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It's not only for "believers" at death, but for all humanity, all souls too.
Ecc 12:5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and terrors shall be in the way; and the almond-tree shall blossom, and the grasshopper shall drag itself along, and the caperberry shall fail; because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets;
Ecc 12:6 Before the silver cord is snapped asunder, and the golden bowl is shattered, and the pitcher is broken at the fountain, and the wheel falleth shattered, into the pit;
Ecc 12:7 And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, and the spirit returneth unto God who gave it.
The phrase "long home" (ie: perpetual/everlasting/eternal, is translated from the Heb "עוֹלָם") is also man's "appointed house" that Job speaks of, here:
Job 30:23 For I know that Thou wilt bring me to death, and to the house appointed for all living.
The terms "home" and "house" are identical in the Hebrew text. Our Father's house (Joh 14:2) is a mansion for all souls, insomuch as all souls are His (Eze 18:4). And it's For all living who are brought to death, even for the soul that dies:
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are Mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine; the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
At death, the elements/entities of the soul (Gen 2:7) separate "one from another" (Ecc 12:7+Mat 25:32). The separation of flesh and spirit, wherein our flesh departs to the earth, and our spirit returns to God, allows the elements of the soul to be judged independently as sheep (spirit) and goats (flesh) as recorded in Mat 25:31-46.
Brother that is one of the best posts I have read in a long time
To soon to rep.
I have rejected the teaching of bible fundamentalism, and never known a day since then that I have not been aware of the sweet presence of the Lord in my life, even at the lowest points of my life. I credit a lot of that to believing the message of Universal Reconciliation, removing any fear in my life that remained in the recesses of my being, after walking away from bible fundamentalism.
UR is a good thing and is good for your well being
ET is an evil thing(which you refuse to call it) and is very bad for your well being
You have been given a false hope and a false peace; just as it is borne out prophetically that there will be a false peace over the whole land during the reign of the Antichrist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjGuru
It's not only for "believers" at death, but for all humanity, all souls too.
Ecc 12:5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and terrors shall be in the way; and the almond-tree shall blossom, and the grasshopper shall drag itself along, and the caperberry shall fail; because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets;
Ecc 12:6 Before the silver cord is snapped asunder, and the golden bowl is shattered, and the pitcher is broken at the fountain, and the wheel falleth shattered, into the pit;
Ecc 12:7 And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, and the spirit returneth unto God who gave it.
The phrase "long home" (ie: perpetual/everlasting/eternal, is translated from the Heb "עוֹלָם") is also man's "appointed house" that Job speaks of, here:
Job 30:23 For I know that Thou wilt bring me to death, and to the house appointed for all living.
The terms "home" and "house" are identical in the Hebrew text. Our Father's house (Joh 14:2) is a mansion for all souls, insomuch as all souls are His (Eze 18:4). And it's For all living who are brought to death, even for the soul that dies:
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are Mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine; the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
At death, the elements/entities of the soul (Gen 2:7) separate "one from another" (Ecc 12:7+Mat 25:32). The separation of flesh and spirit, wherein our flesh departs to the earth, and our spirit returns to God, allows the elements of the soul to be judged independently as sheep (spirit) and goats (flesh) as recorded in Mat 25:31-46.
In context of your verses in Ecclesiastes, can be found these verses,
Ecc 12:13, Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecc 12:14, For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
Here is the clear teaching of holy scripture on the subject.
Rev 20:10, And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Judgment at the Throne of God
Rev 20:11, And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13, And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14, And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15, And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Mat 13:41, The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42, And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:49, So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 25:41, Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
You have been given a false hope and a false peace; just as it is borne out prophetically that there will be a false peace over the whole land during the reign of the Antichrist.
In context of your verses in Ecclesiastes, can be found these verses,
Ecc 12:13, Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecc 12:14, For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
Here is the clear teaching of holy scripture on the subject.
Rev 20:10, And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Judgment at the Throne of God
Rev 20:11, And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13, And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14, And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15, And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Mat 13:41, The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42, And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:49, So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Wrong thread . Start a new one and I will address your unbelief.
You have been given a false hope and a false peace; just as it is borne out prophetically that there will be a false peace over the whole land during the reign of the Antichrist.
In context of your verses in Ecclesiastes, can be found these verses,
Ecc 12:13, Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecc 12:14, For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
Here is the clear teaching of holy scripture on the subject.
Rev 20:10, And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Judgment at the Throne of God
Rev 20:11, And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13, And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14, And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15, And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Mat 13:41, The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42, And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:49, So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 25:41, Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Every man's work will be judged (include you too justbyfaith!)
Gods judgments are for learning righteousness.
Eternal torment is actually eonian. Torment is more properly related to 'testing' ie. refining.
Brimstone is in reference to purification.
All liars have their part in the lake of fire. I hope you have repented of lying.
The book of life is Jesus.
Jesus spoke in parables.
Not many understand, nor will many reign in the Kingdom with Him. But they are just the firstfruits.
The first shall be last and the last shall be first.
Ultimately there will be no more curse.
Every man's work will be judged (include you too justbyfaith!)
Gods judgments are for learning righteousness.
Eternal torment is actually eonian. Torment is more properly related to 'testing' ie. refining.
Brimstone is in reference to purification.
All liars have their part in the lake of fire. I hope you have repented of lying.
The book of life is Jesus.
Jesus spoke in parables.
Not many understand, nor will many reign in the Kingdom with Him. But they are just the firstfruits.
The first shall be last and the last shall be first.
Ultimately there will be no more curse.
Anything else?
The Bible says, "Let God be true but every man a liar."
Will therefore everyone be cast into the lake of fire?
I think not.
Even though all are liars, and all liars shall have their part in the lake of fire, Jesus died for our sins; and therefore for some, the sin of lying will not be imputed to them (Romans 4:8).
And of course I, personally, always do my best to tell the truth; for I abhor lying.
Some, in being judged on the basis of their works, will stand before the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15); and their works will be the reason why they are cast into the lake of fire (because their deeds were evil). Others will stand before the bema seat of Christ (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) and they will receive a reward for good works that, after they have passed through the fire, remain because they are gold, sliver, and precious gems. Those who stand before the bema seat have been forgiven of their sins through the blood of Jesus Christ; so they will not be punished and will not suffer the pain of fire. The only pain will be the pain of loss because some of their works did not remain for them in order to produce a reward in the kingdom.
And of course (I will add): being saved so as by fire does not refer to the dross of sin being refined out of you by your time in the lake of fire. It refers to reward being lost because some of your works were wood, hay, and stubble. For as those works get burned up, so will the reward for them be lost.
In context of your verses in Ecclesiastes, can be found these verses,
Ecc 12:13, Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecc 12:14, For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
The "context" (it's actually a summary/conclusion) aligns perfectly with the scriptures I posted. The dead (that is the flesh) will be judged according to it's works (Rev 20:12).
Quote:
Here is the clear teaching of holy scripture on the subject.
Rev 20:10, And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Judgment at the Throne of God
Rev 20:11, And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13, And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14, And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15, And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Actually, all scripture is "clear teaching". I've addressed this numerous times, so I'll summarize here:
The text you've quoted (Rev 20:10-15) speak of judgments against the flesh, the flesh that works iniquity, called "the dead" (Rev 20:12). The flesh within us (all of us, believers and unbelievers alike) is carnal minded and is "death" and at "enmity" towards God:
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
The judgments against the flesh, noted in Rev 20:12-13, save the soul according to the spirit. An example of this is found here:
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Quote:
Mat 13:41, The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42, And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:49, So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Again, the flesh within us is gathered out of His kingdom (did you ever stop to ask how those who "offend and do iniquity" are in Christ's kingdom to begin with?...lol).
His kingdom is already within all of us (Luk 17:21), and the flesh within us (this includes remnants of the flesh in believers) will be told by Christ to "depart from me" (Mat 7:23). And this departure and perishing of the flesh happens for all:
Job 34:15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
Psa 90:3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Quote:
Mat 25:41, Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
The left hand (in the parable) symbolizes those called goats (Mat 25:32-33) and is a metaphor describing the flesh wherein the two kingdoms/nations of the soul (flesh and spirit) are separated "one from another", that is: flesh from spirit, called "the wicked from among the just" (Mat 13:49).
All the parables and teachings of Christ are in complete harmony and agreement concerning the separation of the soul (flesh from spirit) at death, final judgment and destruction of the flesh (ie: "death" itself) to the saving of the soul according to the spirit. And it happens for all, not some but rather all, exactly as Job, Solomon and Jesus describe it (Jesus using parables to conceal it from those, as yet, not given ears to hear). And the reason it's for all is that all live unto Him:
Luk 20:38 Now he is not the God of the dead, but of the living; for all live unto him.
This is as "clear teaching" on the subject as you can get, and using nothing but scripture to do so.
The "context" (it's actually a summary/conclusion) aligns perfectly with the scriptures I posted. The dead (that is the flesh) will be judged according to it's works (Rev 20:12).
Actually, all scripture is "clear teaching". I've addressed this numerous times, so I'll summarize here:
The text you've quoted (Rev 20:10-15) speak of judgments against the flesh, the flesh that works iniquity, called "the dead" (Rev 20:12). The flesh within us (all of us, believers and unbelievers alike) is carnal minded and is "death" and at "enmity" towards God:
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
The judgments against the flesh, noted in Rev 20:12-13, save the soul according to the spirit. An example of this is found here:
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Again, the flesh within us is gathered out of His kingdom (did you ever stop to ask how those who "offend and do iniquity" are in Christ's kingdom to begin with?...lol).
His kingdom is already within all of us (Luk 17:21), and the flesh within us (this includes remnants of the flesh in believers) will be told by Christ to "depart from me" (Mat 7:23). And this departure and perishing of the flesh happens for all:
Job 34:15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
Psa 90:3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
The left hand (in the parable) symbolizes those called goats (Mat 25:32-33) and is a metaphor describing the flesh wherein the two kingdoms/nations of the soul (flesh and spirit) are separated "one from another", that is: flesh from spirit, called "the wicked from among the just" (Mat 13:49).
All the parables and teachings of Christ are in complete harmony and agreement concerning the separation of the soul (flesh from spirit) at death, final judgment and destruction of the flesh (ie: "death" itself) to the saving of the soul according to the spirit. And it happens for all, not some but rather all, exactly as Job, Solomon and Jesus describe it (Jesus using parables to conceal it from those, as yet, not given ears to hear). And the reason it's for all is that all live unto Him:
Luk 20:38 Now he is not the God of the dead, but of the living; for all live unto him.
This is as "clear teaching" on the subject as you can get, and using nothing but scripture to do so.
Matthew 13
10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”
11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
34 Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. 35 So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet:
“I will open my mouth in parables,
I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world.”
Mark 4
11 He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that,
“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!
Regarding clear teachings and parables, these scriptures are pretty amazing to wrap your head around, and explain much of what we see today.
Why would Jesus teach in parables so the masses WOULD NOT learn? Traditional hellfire thought leads to some very unpleasant conclusions here.
The "context" (it's actually a summary/conclusion) aligns perfectly with the scriptures I posted. The dead (that is the flesh) will be judged according to it's works (Rev 20:12).
Actually, all scripture is "clear teaching". I've addressed this numerous times, so I'll summarize here:
The text you've quoted (Rev 20:10-15) speak of judgments against the flesh, the flesh that works iniquity, called "the dead" (Rev 20:12). The flesh within us (all of us, believers and unbelievers alike) is carnal minded and is "death" and at "enmity" towards God:
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
The judgments against the flesh, noted in Rev 20:12-13, save the soul according to the spirit. An example of this is found here:
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Again, the flesh within us is gathered out of His kingdom (did you ever stop to ask how those who "offend and do iniquity" are in Christ's kingdom to begin with?...lol).
His kingdom is already within all of us (Luk 17:21), and the flesh within us (this includes remnants of the flesh in believers) will be told by Christ to "depart from me" (Mat 7:23). And this departure and perishing of the flesh happens for all:
Job 34:15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
Psa 90:3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
The left hand (in the parable) symbolizes those called goats (Mat 25:32-33) and is a metaphor describing the flesh wherein the two kingdoms/nations of the soul (flesh and spirit) are separated "one from another", that is: flesh from spirit, called "the wicked from among the just" (Mat 13:49).
All the parables and teachings of Christ are in complete harmony and agreement concerning the separation of the soul (flesh from spirit) at death, final judgment and destruction of the flesh (ie: "death" itself) to the saving of the soul according to the spirit. And it happens for all, not some but rather all, exactly as Job, Solomon and Jesus describe it (Jesus using parables to conceal it from those, as yet, not given ears to hear). And the reason it's for all is that all live unto Him:
Luk 20:38 Now he is not the God of the dead, but of the living; for all live unto him.
This is as "clear teaching" on the subject as you can get, and using nothing but scripture to do so.
This is great stuff jjguru!
I have a question for you. Regarding the Kingdom of Heaven, its commonly pointed out that verses like 'not many will enter the kingdom of heaven' is 'proof' for eternal torment.
In my understanding I see it as quite correct that not many enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven is 'eonian life' ... The Kingdom is also the reign with Christ; we learn in other places that those who are reigning will rule with a 'rod of iron' so as to break the vessels (the masses).... just as Jesus was broken by his Father.
As I see it this causes a lot of confusion for people as its commonly assumed Kingdom of Heaven = 'heaven', therefore if you didn't get in, it must mean you are destined for 'eternal hell'.
But the scriptures show much more than that. Those who are ruling, judging, ministers of flame, with Christ -> they have a purpose -> to bring in the rest of the spiritual harvest... So all will be put under Christ and ultimately God will be all in all.
What are your thoughts jjguru?
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