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I have a question for you. Regarding the Kingdom of Heaven, its commonly pointed out that verses like 'not many will enter the kingdom of heaven' is 'proof' for eternal torment.
In my understanding I see it as quite correct that not many enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven is 'eonian life' ... The Kingdom is also the reign with Christ; we learn in other places that those who are reigning will rule with a 'rod of iron' so as to break the vessels (the masses).... just as Jesus was broken by his Father.
As I see it this causes a lot of confusion for people as its commonly assumed Kingdom of Heaven = 'heaven', therefore if you didn't get in, it must mean you are destined for 'eternal hell'.
But the scriptures show much more than that. Those who are ruling, judging, ministers of flame, with Christ -> they have a purpose -> to bring in the rest of the spiritual harvest... So all will be put under Christ and ultimately God will be all in all.
What are your thoughts jjguru?
I'm interested in both of your opinions.
I think maybe legoman what you might be referring to is there is Heaven and also paradise. Most go to paradise which is heavenly but not heaven but it IS heaven but not the inner throne.
I think maybe legoman what you might be referring to is there is Heaven and also paradise. Most go to paradise which is heavenly but not heaven but it IS heaven but not the inner throne.
I'm not sure on that.
I think the Kingdom of Heaven is simply God's chosen working to bring in the rest of the harvest. The "treasures" we might receive simply mean more responsibility in helping to bring in the harvest. Its not some carnal stuff like one person gets a mansion in heaven while another only gets a cottage lol. What would be the point.
I think when all is said and done, God is all in all, then heaven will essentially be like life on earth EXCEPT (and this is a big EXCEPT), everyone will actually follow God's law - which is LOVE. Consider you could do whatever you want to benefit everyone without having to worry about paying something as silly as a power bill. Consider there is no crime, no war, no disease, no capitalism, no communism. People just take care of each other, and the Kingdom/heaven just keeps on expanding.
I'm not sure on the timing of all this.
Also I appreciate your NDE videos you were posting, as those could also be clues as to how this fits together. Its possible we are sent back to earth on "missions" to make improvements, maybe to wake up someone, maybe to learn something. Its complex.
I have a question for you. Regarding the Kingdom of Heaven, its commonly pointed out that verses like 'not many will enter the kingdom of heaven' is 'proof' for eternal torment.
In my understanding I see it as quite correct that not many enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven is 'eonian life' ... The Kingdom is also the reign with Christ; we learn in other places that those who are reigning will rule with a 'rod of iron' so as to break the vessels (the masses).... just as Jesus was broken by his Father.
As I see it this causes a lot of confusion for people as its commonly assumed Kingdom of Heaven = 'heaven', therefore if you didn't get in, it must mean you are destined for 'eternal hell'.
But the scriptures show much more than that. Those who are ruling, judging, ministers of flame, with Christ -> they have a purpose -> to bring in the rest of the spiritual harvest... So all will be put under Christ and ultimately God will be all in all.
What are your thoughts jjguru?
I see it pretty much the same way you do. Some things that I like to emphasize are all things being in Christ now, and His kingdom within all souls, believers and unbelievers a like. The difference between the two groups being Christ in you. Those with Christ in them "see" and are able to "enter into" His Kingdom and witness concerning it for the building up of the body of Christ and to the benefit of the world at large (Joh 17:21, 2Co 5:20, etc.). While those who are in Christ, but as yet Christ is not in them, are simply waiting for their appointed time. But in the end, like you've indicated, God will be all in all (1Co 15:28).
As for a specific passage of scripture, I look at the grammar and syntax first. For the passages that you're alluding to usually depict a present tense condition/reality of those living/acting according to what God has appointed/ordained for them to do. For those who are acting according to the flesh, it usually includes a temporary hardening/rejection/etc. until God's purpose is fulfilled. One that ultimately will achieve it's final outcome which is restoration (Gk. ἀποκατάστασις) and a returning back to God in Christ (Act 3:21).
An example of this is Israel being blinded/hardened/rejected through unbelief, but in the end all Israel being saved on account of it (Rom 11:31-32).
So in the end, all things, judgments included (Rom 11:33), find their ultimate victory for all in Christ, of which all are:
2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
Your understanding is incorrect because you ignore the fact that God's wrath ends (is completed) in Rev 15:1, and you ignore the fact that even though God binds all to disobedience, He does it so He can show mercy on all (Romans 11:32). Ultimately God reconciles all to himself!
You also ignore the fact that God IS AGAPE LOVE, and it would be a terrible plan if God purposed creation so the vast majority of souls were tortured forever, thus ensuring suffering lasts forever...
You ignoring the fact that a Day of wrath is coming Rev 6:17
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Rom 2:5
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
1 Thess 1:10
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead,[b] even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.[/B]
This has been concealed to you friend, may God have mercy on you before its too late !
You ignoring the fact that a Day of wrath is coming Rev 6:17
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Rom 2:5
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
1 Thess 1:10
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead,[b] even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.[/B]
This has been concealed to you friend, may God have mercy on you before its too late !
Hehe... you ignore the fact that God's wrath ends in Rev 15:1.
Rev 15:1 I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed.
There will come a day when all turn back to God, and every knee shall bow and every tongue confess. No tongue will confess without the holy spirit though. Its good news!
May god have mercy on your soul, since this has been concealed from you.
But I KNOW God WILL have mercy on your soul because you have been bound to disobedience so He can have mercy on you!
Romans 11
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
The heavens are yours, and yours also the earth;
you founded the world and all that is in it.
You created the north and the south
Psalm 89
I have never ever read a single verse that says God created hell.
Well according to scripture hell exists and so therefore Col 1:16
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Theres a place called under the earth as well Phil 2:10
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Rev 5:3
And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Matt 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Hehe... you ignore the fact that God's wrath ends in Rev 15:1.
Rev 15:1 I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed.
Other scriptures in Revelation that testify to universal reconciliation, but that are often overlooked, are found here:
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Most Christians interpret Rev 21:3-4 as describing believers who have lost a loved one in Hell, and then God wiping away their tears of sorrow to make them feel better about it. However if you study the grammar and syntax of the passage in greater detail, it's actually describing unbelievers that have undergone judgment of the flesh.
For "the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell (Gk future tense) with them, and they shall be (Gk future tense) his people, and God himself shall be (Gk future tense) with them, and be their God".
What is interesting about this text, is that the verbs "dwell" and "be" (twice) are all in the future tense/indicative mood. They describe things that have not yet occurred, but will in the future.
However, believers arealready the temple of God "for ye are (Gk present tense) the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." (2Co 6:16). And, "Know ye not that ye are (Gk present tense) the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth (Gk present tense) in you?" (1Co 3:16).
So what we see, is that when the flesh departs the soul in death/judgment, that the spirit (the spirit that is now free from the flesh) will shine forth, as: "the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father". And this occurs when the soul (of both believers and unbelievers alike) has been purged of the flesh in Christ. The soul that goes thru the "furnace of fire" will afterwards "shine forth as righteous" in the spirit. Exactly as Jesus said in the parable of the tares/weeds, described here:
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
I posted this to another naysayer who was part of the "dumb, dumber and dumbest" circus (aka: JBF, BF52 and C24). I think C24 may have even left after reading it, he hasn't been back since...lol
Well according to scripture hell exists and so therefore Col 1:16
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Theres a place called under the earth as well Phil 2:10
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Rev 5:3
And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Matt 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
The word prepare here is a creation word !
So you believe the hell you subscribe to( A place of eternal torture) is beneath the earth? Like I said no mention of such a place in the scriptures being created by God
Other scriptures in Revelation that testify to universal reconciliation, but that are often overlooked, are found here:
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Most Christians interpret Rev 21:3-4 as describing believers who have lost a loved one in Hell, and then God wiping away their tears of sorrow to make them feel better about it. However if you study the grammar and syntax of the passage in greater detail, it's actually describing unbelievers that have undergone judgment of the flesh.
For "the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell (Gk future tense) with them, and they shall be (Gk future tense) his people, and God himself shall be (Gk future tense) with them, and be their God".
What is interesting about this text, is that the verbs "dwell" and "be" (twice) are all in the future tense/indicative mood. They describe things that have not yet occurred, but will in the future.
However, believers arealready the temple of God "for ye are (Gk present tense) the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." (2Co 6:16). And, "Know ye not that ye are (Gk present tense) the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth (Gk present tense) in you?" (1Co 3:16).
So what we see, is that when the flesh departs the soul in death/judgment "the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father". And this occurs when the soul has been purged of the flesh in Christ. The soul that goes thru the "furnace of fire" will afterwards "shine forth as righteous". Exactly as Jesus said in the parable of the tares/weeds, described here:
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
I posted this to another naysayer who was part of the "dumb, dumber and dumbest" circus (aka: JBF, BF52 and C24). I think C24 may have even left after reading it, he hasn't been back since...lol
I have seen and considered many of these verses before, but didn't know about the verb tenses. Good stuff! DEEP.
Mat 15:14, Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
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