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I was not intentionally quoting out of the NIV...I was merely quoting out of the kjv out of my memory which apparently failed me. But I don't think that adding the word "even" changes the meaning of the verse in the slightest.
All of us are responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus Christ on the Cross; and it is the very thing that saved those of us who are saved.
It is a parable. Not every aspect of the analogy is going to necessarily come through accurately.
In the interpretation of the parable, Jesus says that there shall be "wailing and gnashing of teeth."
We find elsewhere that the situation is everlasting fire and everlasting punishment.
Of course you are assuming that everyone converts from being a Saul to being a Paul.
However, there are clearly some who will be cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death; their names not being found written in the Lamb's Book of Life (Revelation 20:15).
And the lake of fire is defined for us in Revelation 20:10.
Again, it is a parable; and we find elsewhere that the fire is everlasting and that being cast therein is everlasting punishment.
This does not answer my question of "how are they saved who are not allowed into the kingdom?"
Of course eternal torments is not a lie. I was merely pointing out that even if it were, it has its viability as a deterrent. Are you going to condemn God to the lake of fire for lying; in that He said that eternal torments is a reality? Yet He is not lying.
And the fear of the Lord is wisdom according to Job 28:28. And here is another verse I found on the subject.
Act 9:31, Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.
I think that you can see that in this passage, the fear of the Lord is a positive thing.
In being saved from the power of sin, we are saved from "the furnace of fire" where there shall be "wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:41-42)
Mat 13:41, The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42, And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Why did Jesus thank the Father for hiding certain things from the wise and prudent?
Lol, of course you wasn't. It's not the first time you have resorted to the NIV when your faultless Kjv did not say what you wanted it to. You did it a while back when the NIV was the only translation that translated righteousness to be justice. You're argument to justify why you resorted to the NIV was it's good to look at other translations. You must think we were born yesterday with your lies.
You're being ridiculous as well to say that even so and so are the exact same meaning.
Lol, of course you wasn't. It's not the first time you have resorted to the NIV when your faultless Kjv did not say what you wanted it to. You did it a while back when the NIV was the only translation that translated righteousness to be justice. You're argument to justify why you resorted to the NIV was it's good to look at other translations. You must think we were born yesterday with your lies.
You're being ridiculous as well to say that even so and so are the exact same meaning.
Actually, the kjv relates to us that righteousness is justice, in Romans 1:17...
Rom 1:17, For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
And I think that I should make it clear that I am not of the kjv-only position; but of the kjv-superior position when it comes to Bible translations.
My position is that other translations can be useful to help with study...but that whenever there is a discrepancy between translations, the kjv is superior and ought to be received over and above the other translation.
Actually, the kjv relates to us that righteousness is justice, in Romans 1:17...
Rom 1:17, For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
And I think that I should make it clear that I am not of the kjv-only position; but of the kjv-superior position when it comes to Bible translations.
My position is that other translations can be useful to help with study...but that whenever there is a discrepancy between translations, the kjv is superior and ought to be received over and above the other translation.
I am not arguing a verse on here that does not have anything to do with the OP. You intentionally used a NIV scripture instead of your beloved KJV to try and disprove UR, because you know it reads differently to your go KJV, which you are very militant about it being the only correct translation.
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. NIV
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive KJV
Without the word "even" in the verse it reads completely different, you know that and that is why you ditched your KJV for the NIV because it omits the word "even". Stop being disingenuous.
I am not arguing a verse on here that does not have anything to do with the OP. You intentionally used a NIV scripture instead of your beloved KJV to try and disprove UR, because you know it reads differently to your go KJV, which you are very militant about it being the only correct translation.
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. NIV
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive KJV
Without the word "even" in the verse it reads completely different, you know that and that is why you ditched your KJV for the NIV because it omits the word "even". Stop being disingenuous.
I don't see how it reads any different; the emphasis is still on the fact that those who are IN CHRIST shall be made alive. Not everyone is in Christ; only those who place their faith in Christ.
I don't see how it reads any different; the emphasis is still on the fact that those who are IN CHRIST shall be made alive. Not everyone is in Christ; only those who place their faith in Christ.
I know without a shadow of doubt no matter how disingenuous you are, that you understand what "even so" means. There is no other way to read it than the all in Adam are the same all in Christ. What you are seeing because you are indoctrinated up to your eyeballs with eternal torment is this........
For as in Adam all die, even so ONLY THOSE in Christ all shall be made alive.
I don't see how it reads any different; the emphasis is still on the fact that those who are IN CHRIST shall be made alive. Not everyone is in Christ; only those who place their faith in Christ.
Why don't you study a bit more about faith, leaning on a mind greater than most when it comes to theology; that of Karl Barth. He never claimed to be a universalist, so you should be tickled to death about that
Here's a tiny bit about what Barth wrote about faith (though here it is mainly Thomas Torrance's thought):
"The emphasis of faith is not on our response to God, but on God’s faithfulness that generates and grounds that response. Thomas Torrance often used the analogy of a father holding his child’s hand. The father is the one holding onto the child, and she may be holding on as well, though who’s really holding onto who? Obviously the father is far more capable and responsible for holding onto his child’s hand than this child is responsible for holding his. So it is with our faith. The object of our faith and the ground of it is the faithfulness of Jesus Christ who gave Himself for me and for the world. This is what God has done for us. God has embraced us in the reconciliation of Christ; faith is merely our humble response to His outrageous faithfulness. We are like children holding our Father’s hand."
So these phantom others are not made alive? How then are they consciously tormented forever and ever, alive in a blazing hell of unendurable agonies?
Too bad for these phantom others, huh? I think I read if you experience something even like being burned alive or getting your fingernails removed, after about 17,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 trillion years (actually a drop in the bucket of eternity) you start to get used to it so maybe it ain't so bad after those first 17,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 trillion years go by?
Why did Jesus thank the Father for hiding certain things from the wise and prudent?
Its certainly not because Jesus wants people to be tortured forever in any 'hell'. Do you agree? If you think God hides things so people will end up in eternal torture - you need to think and pray on this more.
The reason Jesus thanks Him is because He understands the Father's plan. God has a plan to humble us all, teaching us humility - the proud will fall, the first will be last. That is one reason God hides certain things from the wise and prudent. Many are called but few are chosen. Study this and understand it is not talking about eternal torture.
Its certainly not because Jesus wants people to be tortured forever in any 'hell'. Do you agree? If you think God hides things so people will end up in eternal torture - you need to think and pray on this more.
The reason Jesus thanks Him is because He understands the Father's plan. God has a plan to humble us all, teaching us humility - the proud will fall, the first will be last. That is one reason God hides certain things from the wise and prudent. Many are called but few are chosen. Study this and understand it is not talking about eternal torture.
Great stuff legoman.
IF he does think God hides things just to torture them forever, well, no reasoning will matter here. Only chance for help is a miracle or a doctor really.
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Great stuff legoman.
