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How are they saved if they are shut out from the kingdom of heaven?
I explained that in another post. Know ye not that the saints will judge the world? WHO are they judging? And for what purpose?
Isaiah 26:9 When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.
1 Corinthians 6:2-3
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Don't you realize that we will judge angels?
Romans 5:19
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Romans 8
20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Then comes the end, when (Jesus) delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For "He has put all things under His feet."But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him (The Father) is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to (Jesus), then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Quote:
Consider the parable of the wheat and tares (Matthew 13:24-30) and its interpretation (Matthew 13:36-43).
The tares will be cast into a furnace of fire to be burned.
Not the tares. They will be cast into the furnace of fire to be burned. God will still be all in all.
Eternal torments as a doctrine, whether it is true or not, serves as a powerful deterrent against sinning certain, specific sins that we can commit.
You are revealing your true thoughts here.
First you say the suffering diminishes as a formula y=1/x. So its "not so bad right?" even though it goes on for eternity
Now it seems you are saying it may be true or it may not, it's still useful as a powerful deterrent... seems you just subscribe to a doctrine of FEAR. So even if the doctrine is a lie, its still good?
All liars will have their part in the lake of fire.
What the Master declares is the foundation of everlasting punishment (kolasis aionios).
"And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say to them on his right hand, Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungry, and you gave me meat: I was thirsty, and you gave me drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in: naked, and you clothed me: I was sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came unto me."
Universalism is a false gospel because God hides Truth from some people, obviously He doesnt want to save them, but reveals truth to others He shall save Lk 10:21
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Notice that Jesus Thanked the Father, lord of heaven and earth for hiding Truth from some.
So sin, that is relegated (condemned) to the flesh will condemn the ones who do not walk after the Spirit but after the flesh.
You obviously have no idea why sin was condemned. Sin IS and has been condemned. We were slaves to sin because it owned us. So, sin being condemned in the flesh left it no longer with power to enslave us, unless of course we still choose to walk in the flesh. We are not saved from eternal hell, we are saved from the power of sin over our lives.
Universalism is a false gospel because God hides Truth from some people, obviously He doesnt want to save them, but reveals truth to others He shall save Lk 10:21
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Notice that Jesus Thanked the Father, lord of heaven and earth for hiding Truth from some.
Wow this is ironic. God is hiding the truth from you Brightfame. Your Calvinism betrays you. Only a Calvinist would conclude that Jesus would rejoice and thank God for blinding some so they would be tortured forever. Yikes! Its the complete opposite of the truth. Jesus doesn't want to save all people...
1 Tim 2:4 [God} who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Considering everything you have said on here of late about the kjv bible being the most accurate translation, basically without fault to the point that it is more reliable than the original manuscripts, why did you use the NIV BIBLE to quote 1 Corinthians 15:22 ?
You are the epitome of men love darkness more than light. You bible fundamentalists think Jesus was referring to sin here, he wasn't , he was referring to the fundamentalists so fastened to their beliefs they would not let go of them for anything, even when their beliefs are exposed for what they are.
Verily I say to you, that the tax-gatherers and the harlots do go before you(because they loved the light over darkness) into the reign of God. They were not bound by fundamentalism.
I was not intentionally quoting out of the NIV...I was merely quoting out of the kjv out of my memory which apparently failed me. But I don't think that adding the word "even" changes the meaning of the verse in the slightest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
I do not believe going by your posts that you have crucified anything other than the very thing that is trying to set you free.
All of us are responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus Christ on the Cross; and it is the very thing that saved those of us who are saved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wellsmaine
You claim an eternal hell. If the tares are burned up, how then is their presence in hell eternal?
It is a parable. Not every aspect of the analogy is going to necessarily come through accurately.
In the interpretation of the parable, Jesus says that there shall be "wailing and gnashing of teeth."
We find elsewhere that the situation is everlasting fire and everlasting punishment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
Tares = Saul
Wheat = Paul
Of course you are assuming that everyone converts from being a Saul to being a Paul.
However, there are clearly some who will be cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death; their names not being found written in the Lamb's Book of Life (Revelation 20:15).
And the lake of fire is defined for us in Revelation 20:10.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
it would be silly to try to torment the tares forever. They are just burned up because they are not wanted. They are weeds.
Again, it is a parable; and we find elsewhere that the fire is everlasting and that being cast therein is everlasting punishment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
I explained that in another post. Know ye not that the saints will judge the world? WHO are they judging? And for what purpose?
Isaiah 26:9 When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.
1 Corinthians 6:2-3
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Don't you realize that we will judge angels?
Romans 5:19
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Romans 8
20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Then comes the end, when (Jesus) delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For "He has put all things under His feet."But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him (The Father) is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to (Jesus), then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Neither Saul nor the tares are eternally tormented.
This does not answer my question of "how are they saved who are not allowed into the kingdom?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
You are revealing your true thoughts here.
First you say the suffering diminishes as a formula y=1/x. So its "not so bad right?" even though it goes on for eternity
Now it seems you are saying it may be true or it may not, it's still useful as a powerful deterrent... seems you just subscribe to a doctrine of FEAR. So even if the doctrine is a lie, its still good?
All liars will have their part in the lake of fire.
Of course eternal torments is not a lie. I was merely pointing out that even if it were, it has its viability as a deterrent. Are you going to condemn God to the lake of fire for lying; in that He said that eternal torments is a reality? Yet He is not lying.
And the fear of the Lord is wisdom according to Job 28:28. And here is another verse I found on the subject.
Act 9:31, Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.
I think that you can see that in this passage, the fear of the Lord is a positive thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
You obviously have no idea why sin was condemned. Sin IS and has been condemned. We were slaves to sin because it owned us. So, sin being condemned in the flesh left it no longer with power to enslave us, unless of course we still choose to walk in the flesh. We are not saved from eternal hell, we are saved from the power of sin over our lives.
In being saved from the power of sin, we are saved from "the furnace of fire" where there shall be "wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:41-42)
Mat 13:41, The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42, And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
Wow this is ironic. God is hiding the truth from you Brightfame. Your Calvinism betrays you. Only a Calvinist would conclude that Jesus would rejoice and thank God for blinding some so they would be tortured forever. Yikes! Its the complete opposite of the truth. Jesus doesn't want to save all people...
1 Tim 2:4 [God} who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Why did Jesus thank the Father for hiding certain things from the wise and prudent?
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