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You answered my question with your non-answer. Even our atheist friends know the answer to this question.
jimmiej, the entire bible supports universal reconciliation and God's plan to save all and reconcile all, so *of course* the gospels do as well. You are spinning here - not sure at what.
In fact the gospel was foretold in Galatians 3 that it would result in all the nations being blessed, just as the angel told it would bring great joy to all people.
jimmiej, the entire bible supports universal reconciliation and God's plan to save all and reconcile all, so *of course* the gospels do as well. You are spinning here - not sure at what.
In fact the gospel was foretold in Galatians 3 that it would result in all the nations being blessed, just as the angel told it would bring great joy to all people.
No, it doesn’t. That’s why you have to tell us about mis-translated passages.
No, it doesn’t. That’s why you have to tell us about mis-translated passages.
Aren't you concerned about mistranslated passages ? You should be, especially concerning something as horrific as your unsaved loved ones apparently heading for eternal torture in the lake of fire. Or are you like jbf who believes the Kjv over the original transcripts? Give me one good reason why you would not be interested in looking into whether the kjv got it wrong in some areas of translation? I would have thought any Christian who wants to know the truth would be interested in seeing if there are mistranslations.
What have you got to lose ?
A quote from Miss Kate
1. There are many verses that say God will have all people to be saved, God will reconcile all, God's judgments are for learning righteousness, all will be made righteous, death will be destroyed, God will do that which He says, it is good news - all nations will be blessed etc.
2. There are some other verses which say people/entities will be sent to eternal fire, everlasting punishment, judgment etc. There are also verses that say not everyone will enter the Kingdom of God - not even everyone who calls "Lord, Lord" will make it into the Kingdom! This should cause you some pause.
Now these 2 groups of verses cannot be reconciled against each other. One group must be misinterpreted or mistranslated. So how to determine?
1- for one thing we can study the meaning behind many of the words, as has been done in this thread, and other places - we can see there are many translation issues with words like 'hell', 'gehenna', 'eternal' - it has even been shown there are flat-out errors in the KJV that simply haven't been corrected yet. Some people do not accept this though because they believe the bible is inerrant, even though it was translated into English by humans who can make errors and have implicit bias.
2- those who believe in eternal torment protest that all actually won't be saved, God doesn't want to or doesn't plan to (even though scriptures say that - they are not in "context"). He is not going to reconcile all, etc - the only blessing that the nations would receive are minimal at best since they will end up in eternal torment anyway. God is holy so He demands that souls be punished for ever in the worst torture imaginable (even though He is willing to save them all, but there is a deadline at death). Also death and sin are not defeated, and some even believe people will keep on sinning forever.
For me it comes down to being honest to study the scripture, and understanding the nature of God. God does not want people to be in torments forever; this concept of eternal torment is not in scripture at all and is at odds with everything God describes. He is just, merciful, compassionate, loving and holy. He literally is defined as LOVE. There is also a purpose for this all. Under eternal torment belief - there is no purpose for anything except to avoid eternal torment. Once you remove the false eternal torment belief, you can begin to learn what the real purpose is.
Yes, and never once in the gospels does Jesus teach us to be saved from hell. He said, it's the sick not the healthy that need a doctor, by this statement alone it is obvious what he came for, to heal the sick. Not to heal them to save them from hell, that is simply a lie from a false gospel, but set them free from the sin that condemns them(condemnation comes from the devil not God), by condemning sin IN THE FLESH .
Paul according to jbf wrote the scriptures below in plain speech, so there should be no excuse for you or him not to understand this and see that what I am saying to you is clearly the truth.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. What Jesus Christ did at the cross is exactly this (He Healed the sick). Death is not so much physical death but the effects of sin, just like the effects of righteousness is life That the righteousness of the law might be FULLFILLED in us
1. There are many verses that say God will have all people to be saved, God will reconcile all, God's judgments are for learning righteousness, all will be made righteous, death will be destroyed, God will do that which He says, it is good news - all nations will be blessed etc.
2. There are some other verses which say people/entities will be sent to eternal fire, everlasting punishment, judgment etc. There are also verses that say not everyone will enter the Kingdom of God - not even everyone who calls "Lord, Lord" will make it into the Kingdom! This should cause you some pause.
Now these 2 groups of verses cannot be reconciled against each other. One group must be misinterpreted or mistranslated. So how to determine?
1- for one thing we can study the meaning behind many of the words, as has been done in this thread, and other places - we can see there are many translation issues with words like 'hell', 'gehenna', 'eternal' - it has even been shown there are flat-out errors in the KJV that simply haven't been corrected yet. Some people do not accept this though because they believe the bible is inerrant, even though it was translated into English by humans who can make errors and have implicit bias.
2- those who believe in eternal torment protest that all actually won't be saved, God doesn't want to or doesn't plan to (even though scriptures say that - they are not in "context"). He is not going to reconcile all, etc - the only blessing that the nations would receive are minimal at best since they will end up in eternal torment anyway. God is holy so He demands that souls be punished for ever in the worst torture imaginable (even though He is willing to save them all, but there is a deadline at death). Also death and sin are not defeated, and some even believe people will keep on sinning forever.
For me it comes down to being honest to study the scripture, and understanding the nature of God. God does not want people to be in torments forever; this concept of eternal torment is not in scripture at all and is at odds with everything God describes. He is just, merciful, compassionate, loving and holy. He literally is defined as LOVE. There is also a purpose for this all. Under eternal torment belief - there is no purpose for anything except to avoid eternal torment. Once you remove the false eternal torment belief, you can begin to learn what the real purpose is.
1. There are many verses that say God will have all people to be saved, God will reconcile all, God's judgments are for learning righteousness, all will be made righteous, death will be destroyed, God will do that which He says, it is good news - all nations will be blessed etc.
2. There are some other verses which say people/entities will be sent to eternal fire, everlasting punishment, judgment etc. There are also verses that say not everyone will enter the Kingdom of God - not even everyone who calls "Lord, Lord" will make it into the Kingdom! This should cause you some pause.
Now these 2 groups of verses cannot be reconciled against each other. One group must be misinterpreted or mistranslated. So how to determine?
1- for one thing we can study the meaning behind many of the words, as has been done in this thread, and other places - we can see there are many translation issues with words like 'hell', 'gehenna', 'eternal' - it has even been shown there are flat-out errors in the KJV that simply haven't been corrected yet. Some people do not accept this though because they believe the bible is inerrant, even though it was translated into English by humans who can make errors and have implicit bias.
2- those who believe in eternal torment protest that all actually won't be saved, God doesn't want to or doesn't plan to (even though scriptures say that - they are not in "context"). He is not going to reconcile all, etc - the only blessing that the nations would receive are minimal at best since they will end up in eternal torment anyway. God is holy so He demands that souls be punished for ever in the worst torture imaginable (even though He is willing to save them all, but there is a deadline at death). Also death and sin are not defeated, and some even believe people will keep on sinning forever.
For me it comes down to being honest to study the scripture, and understanding the nature of God. God does not want people to be in torments forever; this concept of eternal torment is not in scripture at all and is at odds with everything God describes. He is just, merciful, compassionate, loving and holy. He literally is defined as LOVE. There is also a purpose for this all. Under eternal torment belief - there is no purpose for anything except to avoid eternal torment. Once you remove the false eternal torment belief, you can begin to learn what the real purpose is.
1. There are many verses that say God will have all people to be saved, God will reconcile all, God's judgments are for learning righteousness, all will be made righteous, death will be destroyed, God will do that which He says, it is good news - all nations will be blessed etc.
2. There are some other verses which say people/entities will be sent to eternal fire, everlasting punishment, judgment etc. There are also verses that say not everyone will enter the Kingdom of God - not even everyone who calls "Lord, Lord" will make it into the Kingdom! This should cause you some pause.
Now these 2 groups of verses cannot be reconciled against each other. One group must be misinterpreted or mistranslated. So how to determine?
1- for one thing we can study the meaning behind many of the words, as has been done in this thread, and other places - we can see there are many translation issues with words like 'hell', 'gehenna', 'eternal' - it has even been shown there are flat-out errors in the KJV that simply haven't been corrected yet. Some people do not accept this though because they believe the bible is inerrant, even though it was translated into English by humans who can make errors and have implicit bias.
2- those who believe in eternal torment protest that all actually won't be saved, God doesn't want to or doesn't plan to (even though scriptures say that - they are not in "context"). He is not going to reconcile all, etc - the only blessing that the nations would receive are minimal at best since they will end up in eternal torment anyway. God is holy so He demands that souls be punished for ever in the worst torture imaginable (even though He is willing to save them all, but there is a deadline at death). Also death and sin are not defeated, and some even believe people will keep on sinning forever.
For me it comes down to being honest to study the scripture, and understanding the nature of God. God does not want people to be in torments forever; this concept of eternal torment is not in scripture at all and is at odds with everything God describes. He is just, merciful, compassionate, loving and holy. He literally is defined as LOVE. There is also a purpose for this all. Under eternal torment belief - there is no purpose for anything except to avoid eternal torment. Once you remove the false eternal torment belief, you can begin to learn what the real purpose is.
Every passage that you have ever used on my watch in order to promote Universalism has been explained and shown to not actually preach Universalism.
So, there is no contradiction between passages on eternal torments and passages that you think teach that all men will be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
The passages on eternal torments reign in my view.
In order to deny them, you have to do what was prophesied in 2 Timothy 4:3...
You have to say, in looking at the kjv (and other versions also) "I don't like the way that this is translated....what does this translation say?"
Thus you do not endure sound doctrine but heap to yourself teachers (in the translators of other versions) to tell you what your itching ears want to hear.
But you don't have any good reason for rejecting the rendering of the kjv on these matters; other than the fact that you don't like the implications of what is taught by the kjv on these matters.
Every passage that you have ever used on my watch in order to promote Universalism has been explained and shown to not actually preach Universalism.
So, there is no contradiction between passages on eternal torments and passages that you think teach that all men will be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
The passages on eternal torments reign in my view.
In order to deny them, you have to do what was prophesied in 2 Timothy 4:3...
You have to say, in looking at the kjv (and other versions also) "I don't like the way that this is translated....what does this translation say?"
Thus you do not endure sound doctrine but heap to yourself teachers (in the translators of other versions) to tell you what your itching ears want to hear.
But you don't have any good reason for rejecting the rendering of the kjv on these matters; other than the fact that you don't like the implications of what is taught by the kjv on these matters.
Nothing like believing the kjv over the original transcripts because you don't like the fact that the original transcripts don't have any errors.
Nothing like believing the kjv over the original transcripts because you don't like the fact that the original transcripts don't have any errors.
I'm certainly not opposed to the idea that the original transcripts don't have any errors...
However, since those transcripts have been lost to antiquity, it should be clear that God has preserved His unadulterated message by other means.
God is both Omnipotent and sovereign and loving.
Because He is Omnipotent and sovereign, He has the power to preserve the unadulterated message of the gospel that brings salvation in a translation that is contended for as being inspired and inerrant; and superior to all others.
Because He is loving, He was motivated to do so.
He allowed satan to produce his counterfeits; but He made sure that certain people in the body of Christ would contend for the translation that He placed His stamp of approval on; as being the only translation that has for us the unadulterated whole counsel of God.
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Well said.
