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Yes, we should put people like Hitler into paradise as a reward for their behaviour. Anything else is ridiculous and savage. And also, Hitler should be in the same paradise as the rest of us, without dealing with his sin nature.
No danger of another holocaust, in heaven, there!
What did Hitler do that is worse than what God according to you is going to do ?
Yes, we should put people like Hitler into paradise as a reward for their behaviour. Anything else is ridiculous and savage. And also, Hitler should be in the same paradise as the rest of us, without dealing with his sin nature.
No danger of another holocaust, in heaven, there!
There you go again. Yes Hitler committed some of the worst evil attrociites that ever happened. Yet we don't know what happened on his death bed. He could have repented and asked forgiveness for all his sins. And God would forgive him whether you like it or not.
Here is the flaw in the whole thing. Under your own belief system, Hitler will get into heaven 'scott-free' if he only asks forgiveness on his deathbed. But if you understand what is really going on with the Lake of Fire, you will see he too will have his part in the lake of fire. REFINING and PURGING - that is the purpose - so that ultimately God will reconcile all.
There you go again. Yes Hitler committed some of the worst evil attrociites that ever happened. Yet we don't know what happened on his death bed. He could have repented and asked forgiveness for all his sins. And God would forgive him whether you like it or not.
Here is the flaw in the whole thing. Under your own belief system, Hitler will get into heaven 'scott-free' if he only asks forgiveness on his deathbed. But if you understand what is really going on with the Lake of Fire, you will see he too will have his part in the lake of fire. REFINING and PURGING - that is the purpose - so that ultimately God will reconcile all.
If Hitler received Christ on His death-bed, then he was born again...thus the love of God is shed abroad in His heart through the Holy Ghost.
I have no problem with someone like that being in heaven.
It is those who are not born again in whom the sin nature has never been dealt with; and they will not be allowed into heaven because the sin that dwells within them is the cause of death, sorrow, crying, and pain (see Revelation 21:4); in order that heaven might truly be heavenly.
Rom 9:20, Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
You are now morphing into Brightframe.
God was even merciful to the first murderer and put a mark on his forehead????? and you think quoting this scripture at me excuses God for acting far worse than Hitler could have ever imagined. Keep posting, before all the forum lurkers, you are dismantling bible fundamentalism all by yourself. Kudos to you Keep up the good work.
If Hitler received Christ on His death-bed, then he was born again...thus the love of God is shed abroad in His heart through the Holy Ghost.
I have no problem with someone like that being in heaven.
It is those who are not born again in whom the sin nature has never been dealt with; and they will not be allowed into heaven because the sin that dwells within them is the cause of death, sorrow, crying, and pain (see Revelation 21:4); in order that heaven might truly be heavenly.
This is what blows my mind. The typical objection to universalism is like this "That means you can do whatever you want and still go to heaven!!!!!!"
Yet here we see according to traditional Christendom, Hitler could even be in heaven as long as he asked forgiveness by the arbitrary deadline of death.
The really crazy thing here is: do you think Hitler would need to undergo any refinement in this scenario? Perhaps some purging to remove the dross, some judgments so he can understand righteousness? Or its simply "Ask forgiveness 5 seconds before death and immediately go to heaven". Or is that what you mean by dealing with the sin nature? Hitler is changed in an instant; no refinement, purging, purifying or judgment necessary?
So again, if God wishes to be all in all, and restore all things, and save all people, He can do the same thing AFTER DEATH. What do you think the lake of fire is for? It is a judgement, and judgement is for learning righteousness->So that the sin nature can be removed.
By the way I don't think Hitler will get off easy even if he did repent on his deathbed.
It is those who are not born again in whom the sin nature has never been dealt with; and they will not be allowed into heaven because the sin that dwells within them is the cause of death, sorrow, crying, and pain (see Revelation 21:4); in order that heaven might truly be heavenly.
You keep mentioning having the "sin nature dealt with".
I was always of the impression that the "sin nature" has to do with the sanctification of believers, once they ARE believers -- not with forgiveness for sin and reconciliation with god. Paul certainly went on at length bemoaning his own "sin nature" and his inability to do the things he ought or refrain from the things he oughtn't. And he certainly was not an unbeliever.
Or are you of the Holiness persuasion and think that once "saved" it is either impossible to sin, or possible to get to a place where you are impervious to it?
Or perhaps you are just using the term a little more loosely than I used to, IDK.
Another great verse that shows the universal salvation of all.
This is the NASB version which actually says "swear allegiance", which is the meaning of confess. The amplified version also shows this
Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
Seems pretty clear. The hebrew word there is shaba which means to swear or take an oath.
Furthermore:
Phil 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
The greek word there for confess means to:
1) to confess
2) to profess
a) acknowledge openly and joyfully
b) to one's honour: to celebrate, give praise to
c) to profess that one will do something, to promise, agree, engage
So here we see that everyone will:
- bow their knee
- confess his name as in swearing an oath of allegiance, professing openly and joyful celebration, giving praise to the Lord, as in a promise
This is not some forced confession. It is actually an oath or swearing in. Why would God want some sort of fake confession anyway?
God was even merciful to the first murderer and put a mark on his forehead????? and you think quoting this scripture at me excuses God for acting far worse than Hitler could have ever imagined. Keep posting, before all the forum lurkers, you are dismantling bible fundamentalism all by yourself. Kudos to you Keep up the good work.
No, I am not dismantling Bible fundamentalism, it is your argument that is making that attempt.
Those who have the audacity to accuse God are worthy of the condemnation that is coming to them.
It is written,
Rom 3:3, For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Rom 3:4, God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
This is what blows my mind. The typical objection to universalism is like this "That means you can do whatever you want and still go to heaven!!!!!!"
Yet here we see according to traditional Christendom, Hitler could even be in heaven as long as he asked forgiveness by the arbitrary deadline of death.
The really crazy thing here is: do you think Hitler would need to undergo any refinement in this scenario? Perhaps some purging to remove the dross, some judgments so he can understand righteousness? Or its simply "Ask forgiveness 5 seconds before death and immediately go to heaven". Or is that what you mean by dealing with the sin nature? Hitler is changed in an instant; no refinement, purging, purifying or judgment necessary?
So again, if God wishes to be all in all, and restore all things, and save all people, He can do the same thing AFTER DEATH. What do you think the lake of fire is for? It is a judgement, and judgement is for learning righteousness->So that the sin nature can be removed.
By the way I don't think Hitler will get off easy even if he did repent on his deathbed.
I think I'll wait for the Lord to be the judge of those things.
I know that if someone knows his master's will and does things deserving of stripes, he will receive many. But if he doesn't know his master's will and does things deserving of stripes, he will receive few.
But I also know that when a person is born again, they are justified and therefore their punishment has already been taken by Jesus on the Cross.
I'm not certain as to how it will all play out; the Lord knows; I will wait and see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
You keep mentioning having the "sin nature dealt with".
I was always of the impression that the "sin nature" has to do with the sanctification of believers, once they ARE believers -- not with forgiveness for sin and reconciliation with god. Paul certainly went on at length bemoaning his own "sin nature" and his inability to do the things he ought or refrain from the things he oughtn't. And he certainly was not an unbeliever.
Or are you of the Holiness persuasion and think that once "saved" it is either impossible to sin, or possible to get to a place where you are impervious to it?
Or perhaps you are just using the term a little more loosely than I used to, IDK.
I would merely point out that when those who are genuinely born again enter into the next life, they receive glorified bodies that are free from the presence of sin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
Another great verse that shows the universal salvation of all.
This is the NASB version which actually says "swear allegiance", which is the meaning of confess. The amplified version also shows this
Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
Seems pretty clear. The hebrew word there is shaba which means to swear or take an oath.
Furthermore:
Phil 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
The greek word there for confess means to:
1) to confess
2) to profess
a) acknowledge openly and joyfully
b) to one's honour: to celebrate, give praise to
c) to profess that one will do something, to promise, agree, engage
So here we see that everyone will:
- bow their knee
- confess his name as in swearing an oath of allegiance, professing openly and joyful celebration, giving praise to the Lord, as in a promise
This is not some forced confession. It is actually an oath or swearing in. Why would God want some sort of fake confession anyway?
I can also show you where the NASB teaches that Jesus is satan. So I don't put a lot of stock in that version.
Another great verse that shows the universal salvation of all.
This is the NASB version which actually says "swear allegiance", which is the meaning of confess. The amplified version also shows this
Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
Seems pretty clear. The hebrew word there is shaba which means to swear or take an oath.
Furthermore:
Phil 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
The greek word there for confess means to:
1) to confess
2) to profess
a) acknowledge openly and joyfully
b) to one's honour: to celebrate, give praise to
c) to profess that one will do something, to promise, agree, engage
So here we see that everyone will:
- bow their knee
- confess his name as in swearing an oath of allegiance, professing openly and joyful celebration, giving praise to the Lord, as in a promise
This is not some forced confession. It is actually an oath or swearing in. Why would God want some sort of fake confession anyway?
Force a fake confession? That would have God creating a lie. Is that possible?
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