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What you are saying is that a thing is just not because it is a fair punishment but because of who is doing the punishing.
You would, doubtless disparage human judgments but I take a different approach: divine justice should be superior to human justice. And that's not even asking for that much.
But this business of "obey / love me or I will barbecue you forever" is only arguably as bad as the worst and most dysfunctional human judgment.
God: Obey or burn in hell forever.
Putin: Surrender or be exterminated as a people.
Looks about the same.
Jde 1:14, And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jde 1:15, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jde 1:16, These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
jbf listen to what you just wrote here.
You are saying "am I not saving more souls..." - jbf I hate to break it to you, but you are not saving any souls. You haven't saved a single soul in your entire life. That is God's job. That is why He gave us His Son - to be the Saviour of the World. It is literally all in His hands. It is why it is good news - because He came to save the world and will in fact save the world. Unless you think God fails.
It is God who hardens hearts and it is God who will eventually soften all hearts, for every knee will bow and every tongue confess.
I understand you want to save people from the hell you believe in. But if what you believe is true, it is still up to God.
You are talking about an issue of semantics here.
Jde 1:22, And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Jde 1:23, And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Jesus is the only Saviour; however, those who exist within His body can and do snatch people out of the fire; saving them.
By preaching the gospel that has the power to save (Romans 1:16), we give people the option of receiving the salvation that is offered by Jesus Christ. There is a sense in which we save them in the doing of that.
Did you know that the Bible also teaches that we save ourselves?
Act 2:40, And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
And if what you believe is true, there is really no heaven at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justbyfaith
How do you figure?
I can't answer for legoman but I would say the same thing. If your right and the vast majority of souls suffer in hell forever, there can be no heaven. How could there be?
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
And if what you believe is true, there is really no heaven at all.
I can't answer for legoman but I would say the same thing. If your right and the vast majority of souls suffer in hell forever, there can be no heaven. How could there be?
An eternity spent in heaven with the knowledge that the guy in charge of the joint is sadistically tormenting (or if you prefer, allowing to be tormented) billions of souls in some giant torture chamber as infinite punishment for finite offenses that he arbitrarily defines, and somehow being okay with it, is the ultimate survivor's guilt. I mean it's not like you're even there because you're not a sinner yourself -- you simply were able to believe and receive absolution.
An eternity spent in heaven with the knowledge that the guy in charge of the joint is sadistically tormenting (or if you prefer, allowing to be tormented) billions of souls in some giant torture chamber as infinite punishment for finite offenses that he arbitrarily defines, and somehow being okay with it, is the ultimate survivor's guilt. I mean it's not like you're even there because you're not a sinner yourself -- you simply were able to believe and receive absolution.
Yes. I'm not sure why jbf can't see this.
To simplify it even further, if heaven is supposed to a place of peace, serenity, and/or bliss... how can anyone be at peace knowing billions of souls are in torment/torture forever? It is unfathomable, and some people believe either a. they will enjoy the torment of others (because God does), or b. they will not remember their torment->God will remove all memories and experiences of them, thus reducing people to automatons who know nothing of their former life. What's the point?
To simplify it even further, if heaven is supposed to a place of peace, serenity, and/or bliss... how can anyone be at peace knowing billions of souls are in torment/torture forever? It is unfathomable, and some people believe either a. they will enjoy the torment of others (because God does), or b. they will not remember their torment->God will remove all memories and experiences of them, thus reducing people to automatons who know nothing of their former life. What's the point?
Indeed. And yet they will go on and on about how god doesn't want robots in this life, yet being lobotomized automatons on the next life is perfectly wonderful!
If the sin nature is never dealt with, then the person will be sinning throughout eternity (see, for example, Revelation 16:9-11).
Therefore it is the just judgment of the Lord that those who are never born again should be punished throughout eternity for the sins that they will be committing.
Those who have justice in their hearts will not be grieved when justice is actually served.
Those who enter into heaven do not become automatons. While the sin nature is dealt with and therefore there is no rebellion in their hearts. It is by choice that there is no rebellion in their hearts; for they will have availed themselves, by faith and choice, of the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the Cross of Calvary.
Indeed. And yet they will go on and on about how god doesn't want robots in this life, yet being lobotomized automatons on the next life is perfectly wonderful!
Isn’t it possible that those in heaven want to be there, enjoy it or just simply love the Lord?
Isn’t it possible that those in heaven want to be there, enjoy it or just simply love the Lord?
How can you enjoy it knowing billions are suffering forever?
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I'm not sure why jbf can't see this.