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a while back, I met a Yoruba man and he claimed that his family traced their lineage back to the kings of Ancient Egypt. they certainly do claim AE. the history of Ancient Ghana had ties to AE over 2500 hundred years ago. the Soyinka people were said the be a west African direct tie to AE.
everybody from west African came from east Africa anyway and our Ancestors from Africa came directly from west Africa.
its no ones business why we love Ancient Egypt or choose to identify with that ancient nation in a philosophical way.
Uh, no. West African was populated from the lake Chad region.
what you don't seem to get is that you don't tell us how, what or who to identify with.
Others have made this absurd argument earlier.
Actually, yes, I have every right to say as I like and post evidence. You have every right to say as you want and post evidence. Unfortunately, I have posted good evidence, and you have posted none.
Or, lets try it a different way- you and your friends are free to tell each other any thing you want. But if you expect it to be taken seriously by the rest of the world, then yes, it will have to stand up to historical scrutiny.
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Originally Posted by Obsidian Princess
it does not matter if we have absolutely no descent from Ancient Egypt, we can identify with it all we want
You can identify with Martians all you want too. When you start claiming direct descent, or talking about how the Martians were a "black" people, then others will scrutinize that.
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Originally Posted by Obsidian Princess
and if west Africans tribes identify with AE this gives us more right to do so also because we have ancestry from there.
By that logic, does the fact that some have claimed that King Tut was related to half of all European men give me a right to claim Egypt? Of course not, because it is nonsense...just like when members of those tribes claim it.
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Originally Posted by Obsidian Princess
but anyway, I digress...even though I don't identify with any ancient nation, I will not stop wearing my Ank ear rings! LOL!!!
Its good that you can laugh at your own jokes. humor eases pain.
It can be much worse than that- some places only to the MtDNA or YDNa which is a minuscule amount of your overall DNA picture.
Bingo. Yes that's another issue. So it's not perfect. People need to take those tests with a grain of salt. That's why knowing your family tree as far back as possible is important.
I didn’t feel like responding before but I’m bored so I will now. cachibatches is basing his belief that Ancient Egyptians were “primarily Caucasoid” on incorrect understanding of genetics. He’s saying this because he thinks that using y-DNA and mtDNA from those studies he posted shows us how much racial admixture the people had. This is completely wrong!!! Genetics doesn’t work that way.
To see how much admixture there is in a population you need to look at autosomal DNA. Not mtDNA and Y-DNA. But not much autosomal studies were done yet on the Ancient Egyptians to get a clear answer.
Just silliness. The conclusions posted by the geneticists are that Egypt was populated by massive back migrations of Eurasians in the stone ages. They are right there to be seen in the studies, and yes, people can trust the best geneticists in the world over Sean Turner's.
MtDNA and YDNA show the maternal and paternal line, respectively. And you conclude that we can't get some accurate picture from this? Yes, there is a lot more DNA. But these are some pretty telling markers.
I don't have time to break it down tonight, but if you replay and try to continue this, I will start posting the conclusions to the studies.
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Originally Posted by seanturner
Most researchers take a multidisciplinary approach to study a population, because more factors are involved than just genetics. Besides looking at DNA, and physical remains of people (which was done by researchers like Sonia Zakrzewski who confirmed that some ancestors of Ancient Egyptians like the group called Badarians, resembled Sudanese and people of the Horn of Africa more than anyone else), scholars also study other things like culture, migration history and language..
Irish, Brace, Keita...all say that same thing. Yes, I posted the Keita clip. They are the same people that they have always been. So dental, cranial, and skeletal evidence says the same thing as DNA. DNA is more important anyway.
Where you and your Afrocentric pals (just admit it) are going wrong is that Egyptian skeletal lengths are still long compared to Europeans. It is an example of convergent evolution over tens of thousands of years.
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Originally Posted by seanturner
Another thing that wasn’t mentioned before is that there are confirmed links of West African ethnic groups to those from the Nile region. Studies of the Hausa people of Nigeria show they are most closely related to Nilo-Saharans (a group that includes Sudanese of the Nile region) than they are to typical West Africans. Their language Hausa is also a member of the great Afro-Asiatic language family (a family that many scholars believe emerged in East Africa, around the Horn) which included ancient Egyptian as well as Semitic languages. Today the Hausa are one of the largest groups in West Africa, and are famous for their medieval city-states like Kano.
No, there are not confirmed links. If they are linked, then why are they not speaking some variation of Egyptian? Why is there no hieroglyphic writing? No pyramids? No conception of Maat? No Egyptian mathematics?
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Originally Posted by seanturner
The same goes for the Kanuri of Nigeria, who came to be when Kanembu migrants from Chad (related to Sudanese like those of Darfur) settled there. They intermarried with people from the Borno region of Nigeria to form the Kanuri. They both speak a Nilo-Saharan language. Their Kanem-Bornu empire of central, western and parts of northern Africa lasted more than a thousand years. They also had a huge impact on the Hausa.
But they didn't come form Egypt and don't speak Egyptian? Pretty tenuous link.
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Originally Posted by seanturner
The Songhay people of Mali, Niger and elsewhere in West Africa also speak a Nilo-Saharan language. The Songhay Empire was one the largest in African history.
So yes, there are West Africans who have a connection to the Sudan, through immigration, but it’s not a direct link to Egyptians obviously. Of course I’m not saying they are descended from Egyptians because that’s foolish, but it’s confirmed that some West African groups are related by ancestry and language and culture (one example: peoples of the Nile valley and West Africa believed in divine kingship and most of their early ancestors inhabited the Saharan zone before it turned to desert) to peoples of that region. Indirect influences exist. Migration from east to west Africa happened all throughout history, making this a complicated issue. .
These are extremely weak links. Again, and again and again...Persians speak Indo-European language, but there are no Eurocentrsts out there trying to claim Persia. It is just bizarre, and more bizarre that people will defend it.
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Originally Posted by seanturner
Another thing: Ancient Egyptians and Modern Egyptians are the same people and probably looked the same. .
And so after all of the straw men and ad hominem, you agree with me. Nice.
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Originally Posted by seanturner
There was no population replacement. We find that some ancients were like the “Eurasian Caucasoids” as cachibatches showed, and some were black, and some were mixed.
Thank you again. 45 pages into this and you are finally going to treat me with honesty. I guess I should be grateful or something.
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Originally Posted by seanturner
As it was then and today. BUT: there were demographic changes in the population. Egypt experienced a massive population boom in the last few centuries. From the 1880s there was an increase of 600% in 100 years!
link: Egypt - Population .
All populations have exploded.
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Originally Posted by seanturner
So a good question is if this population boom affected all areas (rural and urban), and Lower Egypt (north) and Upper Egypt (south) equally.... Which brings me to something interesting from one of the links cachibatches shared:
Yet every single source out there measuring DNA, skeletons, crania, teeth, whatever say they are the same people. It is just remarkable the extent that we will go through here to change the history, and it completely validates the thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanturner
So if a population increase affected certain parts of the country and not others, while modern Egyptians are the same as the ancients (which they are!), the actual proportions of different segments of the population may not have increased at the same levels in modern times. Since Egypt was always a heterogenous and mixed population this is important to remember. Big cities of the north may have boomed while those of the south, not as much. (Or maybe the opposite) That’s what the quote above explains. So today we may see some types of people in larger numbers, but this may not have made up the distribution ratio in ancient times. Basically the same people, just different distributions.
But there is no evidence of nor need for this incongruity. This is a figment of your imagination. It is amazing that you will repeatedly agree that they are the same people and then come up with a fantasy scenario by which they may not be the same people.
Lets post some study conclusion tomorrow so everyone can see what the scientists say.
Regarding culture, here are some traits of the Ancient Egyptians common to other Africans:
Not to mention there is linguistic evidence of a strong African root to their language:
So there’s evidence that the earliest people speaking the ancient Egyptian language were from below Egypt, that is, the region of Sudan.
Another (though very sad) commonality is the practice of female genetic mutilation (called pharaonic circumcision in the case of Ancient Egypt). It is found primarily in sub-Saharan Africa, from west to east Africa. But Egypt has one of the highest cases as this map shows:
So we see that Ancient Egyptians came from a common pastoral society as other northeast Africans like those of Sudan, Kenya and Ethiopia. They also shared similar material culture. In essence, Ancient Egyptians descended from a common pastoral and Saharan group with other Northeastern Africans, then branched off and developed their own unique civilization, with some input from other peoples here and there over time.
Now I wrote this whole post only to balance the claims put out by cachibatches. Egypt was always a mixed society, with black African input just as important as the “Caucasoids” he talks about. No race or group was more significant than the other. At different times and different regions, the people would look different. So what I posted above, added to evidence from other studies showing important Eurasian elements gives us the following full picture:
But no pyramids, hieroglyphic writing, conception of Maat, or Egyptian mathematics. They do not speak the Egyptian language, and largely, with the exceptions already noted, do not even speak Afro-Asiatic. they do not worship Egyptian gods.
Bull****, Egypt is a black civilization just like Nubia and and Axum(ethiopia). I dont believe in the hemites bull****. All of Africa was originally a black continent. Forget the Euro centrist degradation of africans- we have plenty of history and civilization to be proud of.
You do. It just isn't in Egypt.
Please read though the thread. we are WAY beyond emotional invectives.
But no pyramids, hieroglyphic writing, conception of Maat, or Egyptian mathematics. They do not speak the Egyptian language, and largely, with the exceptions already noted, do not even speak Afro-Asiatic. they do not worship Egyptian gods.
Female genital mutilation (FGM), is practiced in many parts of North Africa, especially in Muslim areas. Not just Egypt alone. FGM is practiced in many parts of Sub Saharan Africa as well.
His point, an interesting one, is that Egypt is one of the countries where FGM is extremely common.
FGM is often thought of as a "muslim" but it's of course much older than islam and it's not even remotely a universally accepted practice in muslim countries.
I wonder if FGM is not so much a custom that radiated out of Egypt but a saharan custom.
If one looks at the geographical distribution of the practice, it seems to be common wherever the Saharans* went when they were fleeing the drying of the desert.
* : there were several types of people living in the Sahara.
I'm thinking that the FGM inventors were of the tall, pastoral, light brown skinned type.
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