Ban On Homosexuals (DADT) in the Military Repealed (Israeli, job, war)

[Ceist]

Originally Posted by Guamanians

Smash, what happens when a drill sergeant finds out that private Richard has been sneaking peeks at his new recruits in the shower?
Whatever he does is not going to have a happy ending for the gay private. If you thought that gays had it tough before, then just think how tough it will be when they want to be open about their sexuality.

I don't know who you have been hearing it from (my guess is the media)
but, the military has been very fair to gays. The "don't ask" part of the law was rarely a problem at all. That leaves us with the "don't tell" part, which is solely the responsibility of the gay soldier.
You seem to think that gays can't do their job without telling people that they are gay? If that is so hard then maybe they shouldn't be in the military in the first place.

Have you ever heard about "playing the pronoun game"? I doubt it, because you are a straight person and would never have had to pretend you weren't straight.

Let's turn it around for a moment and imagine that DADT applied to straight people instead of gay people.

Imagine if you were serving and you had a girlfriend/wife back home. But you had to pretend 24/7 that she either didn't exist or that she was man.

If you were asked about your significant other as people often do, you had to say you were single, or you had to constantly remember to say "he" instead of "she". You had to make sure you didn't accidently give away the gender of your significant other.

You couldn't talk about even the simplest everyday things that you do with a partner that everyone takes for granted. Shopping, buying a car, getting a bank loan, going to the movies.

You certainly couldn't talk about any problems you were having in your relationship like all your fellow servicemen and service women would do, or ask someone for advice.

You couldn't have any photos of her. You couldn't email her, text message her or write letters to her in case someone saw these and outed you as straight.

You couldn't have her listed as your spouse/next of kin/person to be notified in case you were injured or killed.

What if the woman you love was involved in a car accident or was gravely ill in hospital? You couldn't request compassionate leave to be by her side. Or you would have to make up some complicated story to get that leave, all the while worrying about what was happening to her.

The woman you love couldn't meet you at the docks/airport/base when you returned from active duty with all the other serviceperson's partners/spouses unless you pretended to just be friends- no hugging and kissing.

She certainly couldn't live in married quarters on or near the base with you.

If you lied and said you were single, you had to pretend to flirt and hit on men when you were off duty so other people didn't get suspicious that you were straight.

You had to pretend to find men attractive and say things like "oh yeah, I'd definitely hit that" when you and your crew saw an attractive man and you had to join in on all the usual jokes and sex talk (about men remember) that your fellow servicemen crap on about when off duty.

And I'm not even mentioning all the heterophobic comments you hear all around you all the time and have to pretend aren't hurtful or have to join in on just to make sure everyone knows you are gay and not straight.

All this on top of an already extremely stressful job where you can be killed or injured in the service of the country you love. The country that values honesty and integrity in the military yet demands that you lie about who you are or the woman you love. The country that will end your career in the military and kick you out if you slip up just once and say "she" instead of "he".

And on and on and on...24/7 for years.

Do you think you could keep up the pretense 24/7 for years?
Do you think it would be easy?

There are so many things you don't even notice you say and do every day that reveals your orientation as a straight person.

Imagine if you had to be constantly aware of all these things and conciously check what you say and restrict what you do in case someone found out you were straight and reported you and you got kicked out of the job you spent years training for. The job you love doing fighting for your country - all because you are straight and happen to love a woman.

"Don't tell" doesn't just simply mean not saying to someone "I'm gay", it means you have to lie and pretend to be someone you are not - every day, year after year.

Fair?

[jaida]

Originally Posted by Jaymax

Let's turn it around for a moment and imagine that DADT applied to straight people instead of gay people.... Fair?

That's a damn good way of getting people to understand (well, except for the most ignorant of folks).

[Ceist]

Originally Posted by jaida

That's a damn good way of getting people to understand (well, except for the most ignorant of folks).

Imagine how much better gays and lesbians can do their jobs in the military without the unnecessary burden of having to do and say all things that are needed to pretend to be straight? And not having to constantly worry about giving away any of the little everyday things that reveal that they are gay? Or without having to live 24/7 with the fear of being investigated and kicked out if they accidently slip up - even with a simple pronoun?

[hooligan]

Originally Posted by Tommy Storm

In other words, lots is an understatement.....

Nope - I know there have been multiple studies done. Lots is completely accurate. Prove me wrong if you disagree.

[Ceist]

Originally Posted by hooligan

Nope - I know there have been multiple studies done. Lots is completely accurate. Prove me wrong if you disagree.

I agree.

What's even more telling is that there are NO peer-reviewed studies performed in keeping with scientific protocols that even suggest (let alone prove) sexual orientation is a choice.

Yet these anti-gay "ex-gay" religious groups keep charging lot's of money to gay and bi-sexual people (who are religiously motivated to try to "change" to heterosexuality) for therapy that is ineffective, unethical and potentially dangerous.

You would think if they were right that homosexuality is a "choice", they could come up with even one reputable peer-reviewed study. But they can't - because it's not a choice.

(PS If anyone tries to misrepresent the Spitzer questionairre on religious "ex-gays" - Spitzer himself will tell you that homosexuals can't change their sexual orientation, they can only try to pretend that they are heterosexual)

[twinArmageddons]

Originally Posted by Guamanians

You seem to think that gays can't do their job without telling people that they are gay? If that is so hard then maybe they shouldn't be in the military in the first place.

It's not a matter of them not being able to do their job without telling people their sexuality. That they can get on fine by themselves.

It's the fact that if anyone finds out that they're gay, they're discharged.

They literally have to live a lie in order to serve the military.

Which is wrong.

[TheDragonslayer]

Originally Posted by Guamanians

Smash, what happens when a drill sergeant finds out that private Richard has been sneaking peeks at his new recruits in the shower?
Whatever he does is not going to have a happy ending for the gay private. If you thought that gays had it tough before, then just think how tough it will be when they want to be open about their sexuality.

I don't know who you have been hearing it from (my guess is the media)
but, the military has been very fair to gays. The "don't ask" part of the law was rarely a problem at all. That leaves us with the "don't tell" part, which is solely the responsibility of the gay soldier.
You seem to think that gays can't do their job without telling people that they are gay? If that is so hard then maybe they shouldn't be in the military in the first place.

You call discharging over 13,000 gay and lesbian service members fair? How many straight service members were discharged for someone finding out they were straight? None!!

[SourD]

Originally Posted by Langlen

It's not a matter of them not being able to do their job without telling people their sexuality. That they can get on fine by themselves.

It's the fact that if anyone finds out that they're gay, they're discharged.

They literally have to live a lie in order to serve the military.

Which is wrong.

They joined knowing the rules. It was THEIR choice.

[JayBrown80]

Originally Posted by SourD

They joined knowing the rules. It was THEIR choice.

Perhaps, but when the law in unjust it becomes the responsibility of good men to change those laws.

By your logic, no social injustice should be corrected, because hey, people know the score. That makes no sense. Would you say the same to women who wanted to vote? Interracial couples who wish to marry? Jews who wanted to join a country club?

[geos]

Originally Posted by andrea3821

Today is the only day you're proud to be an American? You might want to think about relocating.

Why don't you relocate? Hate, fear & war mongers don't have a monopoly on patriotism. I'm proud of the good things this country has done (like ending slavery, women's suffrage desegregation and the latest victory) and disgusted with the predatory capitalist economy that sacrifices everything on the alter of profit including hundreds of thousands of innocent lives in wars based on lies so the rich military contractors can become more rich.