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I agree with your points. Online learning is not a deficient way of learning, the current problems and weaknesses are due to the lack of training and expertise of execution. At some point the human race will need to pivot to online and digital methods of learning or else continued evolution will stall or worse reverse course.
Part of it might be the fact that a lot of people just think online learning is equivalent to just a virtual classroom streaming a video for 6 hours a day. it’s only one part of an online curriculum. There are some incredibly innovative and interactive tools and business models out there, that, while not mainstream yet, will at a minimum supplement traditional learning methods going forward that wasn’t available even a few years ago. There’s even a gig economy for online teaching with people, supposedly teaching online for years.
Last edited by Steephill2; 12-30-2020 at 09:07 AM..
It is correct to say people have different learning styles. However, it's also clear that traditional schools of education have taught teachers how to design learning activities in a real world environment and not in the virtual world. Because students have different learning styles is precisely the reason that in order to be effective, teachers must be trained in the best practices for teaching to learning outcomes in a virtual world. Two different animals. Best practices have been developed in using technology in teaching. They are research-based and should be utilized, otherwise it's inevitable learning will be impacted.
Interesting thing is these traditional methods aren’t exactly happening now even in an in person setup due to modifications and restrictions.
How many teachers are trained for half their students in classrooms and other half of them virtual at the same time? How many are trained to be able to communicate effectively wearing a mask and staying 6 feet away? A lot of the time while learning new words and vocabulary, it would help if you could see the mouth movements of the teacher. Just simple communication methods have been severely impacted.
Interesting thing is these traditional methods aren’t exactly happening now in person due to modifications.
Yeah that was my point, and the teachers lack of training will impact the learning outcomes for many students. Obviously, those who are trained will be better prepared to deal with it, but I don't think most are.
Actually I have a few teaching certificates for mass and a ESL cert. Childless? My girlfriend has a son and we've been together for years. He's 18 now but dealing with teens isn't easy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by western mass and love it
How many people lost/had to give up their jobs so these teachers didn’t have to do theirs? GTFO with all your bs about , well everything. Millions of people are at work among the public everyday doing their jobs. Yet a teacher is in too much danger. I’d be willing to wager everything I have that more people are out working than people that WFH. I’m travel all over New England for work and am in and out of business all day. Most places are back to pre Covid level of staff. But I hear story after story of how they lost certain employees because they needed to be home with their kids because of school. I agree teachers aren’t babysitters but most parents are not educators either. That argument works both ways. How about the Teachers put their adult pants on and get back to work like the rest of the country. I’m completely over people using Covid as an excuse for things. This country has become a weak , pathetic, Whiney, sad display of a country. Trump was right about one thing, we do need to make America great again. Just not the way he envisioned it.
There’s no backbone, no real leaders, no one knows how to look out for themselves. Everyone wants someone else to look out for them. We’ve become a lazy, complacent, indifferent, sniveling society. I look forward to my time spent at my Cabin in Vermont. Completely off the grid , self sustaining without any people around for miles.
About 42% of the labor force is working remotely. (https://news.stanford.edu/2020/06/29...-home-economy/) Not everyone works directly with the public. Giving up jobs? Well it depends on what you mean. I know of smoke shops that closed due to covid and the ecig ban and the fact that the shops were the size of a small room. If you can't socially distance no one wants to go into a small shop with a dozen people going in and out. I've been to NYC, Paris, Shanghai etc I know how big population density can get so it's really about maintaining the profitability hence why I say it can't be a commodity.
Most places back to precovid staff? Sure but is it all in the office? Probably not. Parents have to be somewhat responsible for the situations of studying. Chris Rock even said "If the kid can't read that's mommas fault. Now if the kid can't read because there's no lights in the house that's daddy's fault". I had access to a town library and school library growing up. Now they have all of that and more. There's PLENTY of resources for parents to help educate their kids and keep them occupied. This idea of learned helplessness that can only be solved by immediate validation by some in person person doesn't work. It also would create a false expectation once they graduate because *surprise* you might still be attending higher ed remotely and even the workforce.
We have multiple technologies that pretty much have evolved at different rates and made much of this possible. The memory of a kindle is hardly ever full since a book can fit on a floppy disk. MP3's of lectures again don't overload systems. Sure 4K video can add up but you don't need that for educational videos all the time.
Lazy? hardly. The memes of going to school in a snow storm are funny but the reality is the push to endanger people doesn't help. I've worked within school systems for years and frankly if it isn't safe you don't do it. Could they hire a cleaning crew if they didn't pass a CORI check? Yeah if they want litigation for years. Should the lunch ladies pass serv safe? yeah that's a good idea. Opening up a building is more than just the teachers, there's the staff, the suppliers, the bus drivers etc. https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/09/...ard-hyde-park/
Can you imagine all the traffic if each kid in a major district (Boston, Worcester, Springfield etc) had to be driven in by their parents? If we can't expect people to ride a public bus (ridership is WAY down) what makes us think kids are safe on a public school bus?
Kids aren't going to get the vaccine until what...april? Teachers should but again the HVAC systems have not been changed in most schools.
Way back in the early to mid 90's AT&T mentioned twice in their commercials about online education
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2EgfkhC1eo Look at 20 and 130 seconds. I graduated high school in 1998. Everything was already typed back then, very little was hand written. By the time I went to higher ed it was all electronic and on Blackboard and Moodle. Now they have Google Classroom along with webcams to learn anything from anywhere. There's been great strides in giving internet access and laptop/computer access.
I understand the need for day care for kids that makes sense. But if the kid can reasonable take care of themselves then what exactly is the issue? too much wifi being used? boredom? cabin fever? If you ask me those that have the worse are the elderly in this. So you go out due to the cold and well not much on tv and its hard losing friends and relatives. What hardship have kids had these days? Staying inside..they still have social media, video games, movies, websites etc. They were glued to screens before covid so what makes them tire of them now?
Like everyone else I miss things here and there. I miss going to museums, fundraisers and restaurants. I miss the parades and ethnic events. I could go on and on since you are in western mass as well you get it.
this goes back to Marshall McLuhan. the medium is the message. If it's written this is what a English major would factor in with adjectives and detail. If it's audio this is something that NPR excels in with storytelling and graphic accounts. If it's visual we have HD and 4K content that goes well beyond what we had just decades ago. We can reach students, we can create interactive apps.
I agree with your points. Online learning is not a deficient way of learning, the current problems and weaknesses are due to the lack of training and expertise of execution. At some point the human race will need to pivot to online and digital methods of learning or else continued evolution will stall or worse reverse course.
Yup, definitely not deficient per se, but only if done right.
Actually I have a few teaching certificates for mass and a ESL cert. Childless? My girlfriend has a son and we've been together for years. He's 18 now but dealing with teens isn't easy.
I apologize for my previous snarky comment, but the bolded below really shocked me. You aren't familiar with raising early learners, and you don't understand where tax dollars for public schools are focused (salaries).
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Originally Posted by mdovell
Schools aren't really closed the content just goes online. This concept of learned helplessness where someone must always feel validation by immediate in person attention just doesn't work. [Yikes. "Learned helplessness"? Is a first grader being trained to be helpless by being in a classroom? Has the entire planet gotten this wrong?]
Let's suppose right now you are in high school. What do you think things will be like once you get out? Do you think you'll have huge in person meetings? Any company is going to cram you into a cubical and probably non profits and government for that matter.
I'm sorry but things changed. Doing things in person all the time doesn't always work well. We can reduce things to information and just go with that. When I was in retail I'd get asked questions that somehow they wanted someone to tell them to their face as if the answer would change. It reminds me of an uncle I have that refused direct deposit. I'm sorry but some things just change.
I realize this is the birthplace of open town meeting but that is not the way how the vast majority of organizations govern themselves.
I read the Central Register every week. It comes out on Wednesdays and lists the bids for every town and city in Mass. Over the summer one, just one school district put out a legit bid for COVID related work (Yarmouth) [Because nearly the entire budget goes to salaries]. Unless you have those robotic sprayers (Siemens I think) you probably haven't changed the building and thus the airflow. How many schools aren't testing people as they walk in and arent taking temperatures? [Because nearly the entire budget goes to salaries. Different towns have different testing measures; fortunately our town errs on the side of overtesting] Sure you can argue about the students but if the teachers and staff are not safe they can't come in. My girlfriend is a teacher and frankly this push to put students back in just backfires. Ok so you have a hybrid. She has to keep her mask on while teaching and then the students at home can't hear her [this sounds like a tired anti-masker argument; grab a gun and go directly to the Michigan State House]. Well whose fault is that? She could take it off if there were no students there and teach from home. But wait for some reason we think it means something if it is in the classroom. Then parents that are just sitting around [99% of parents don't just sit around. Good grief] send their kids in with covid because they either don't know any better or just don't care [99% of parents care]. Each exposure is another week of isolation and having the classes taught online. Yes some parents complain but grades have been online for years if not decades. Assignments are all online as well even before covid. You don't hand write papers as a high school senior come on now![For a kindergartner or first or second or third grader? What are you talking about? This isn't undergrad.]
The other nice thing though is this cuts down on bullying[HA!] and frankly students can't say stupid stuff because it's all on webcam and can easily be recorded. Good luck doing that in person. [What kind of ridiculous logic is this?]
last spring everyone said teachers were heroes and then it changed in the fall when parents got sick of their kids [Please. Our entire community remains in awe of our teachers. Parents are not "sick of their kids," but a proper education and fewer IEPs would be nice.]. I'm sorry but they aren't babysitters. [My parents were teachers, I'm a former teacher, and my wife is a teacher. I've never heard the "babysitter" line until this year. Never. Does your girlfriend really feel that way? She should perhaps change fields.] So is the problem that you can't trust your kid at home or you yourself are there as well? I've already heard of parents that treat at home virtual learning like a game show and start saying the answers to tests [Possibly a case against at-home learning?]. With all the resources out there it's really hard pressed these days to blame teachers for things. [No one is blaming teachers. School districts, perhaps.] If this was 30 or so years ago yeah I can see the issue. Between Project Gutenburg, Wikipedia, Youtube, Curiosity Stream, Masterclass, Coursera etc. [Do you know what these words mean to an elementary school student? Nothing.] There's plenty of educational resources out there.
This might be a bit OT but my experiences with online education have varied significantly. MIT Courseware can be free but a bit boring due to the lack of interactivity. Brainbench back in the day was a joke. Technically I like Coursera and I'm willing to try MasterClass at some point. Udemy I haven't exactly heard good things about. I've had Coursera ones that were litterally a one day click though simple learning. But at the same point the one from Stanford was EXACTLY like my grad school class. I know that because the professor pretty much laid out terms and the content was the same. Some get really advanced and there's message boards like this. There's are huge debates about if you have a class gradually get released so students get the same content at the same time or just dump the whole thing and it's all "live". If the subject is really new you might not want to dump the whole thing live.
Ironically I took the john hopkins covid tracer class and my employer said that it was coursera classes that put me over the competition in being selected. Some classes can group together for specializations and I'm working to get one this spring. First it was four classes and a capstone then midway though went to five. I guess it comes with the territory. The bad part about some of this though is if a class for whatever reason is pulled. I've saved scans of certificates as a record but sometimes this does happen. The vast majority of classes have been just myself but there was one on negotiating that did involve other students and went well. that part has to be expanded. We can have different approaches to online education, training and seminars.
This might be a bit OT but my experiences with online education have varied significantly. MIT Courseware can be free but a bit boring due to the lack of interactivity. Brainbench back in the day was a joke. Technically I like Coursera and I'm willing to try MasterClass at some point. Udemy I haven't exactly heard good things about. I've had Coursera ones that were litterally a one day click though simple learning. But at the same point the one from Stanford was EXACTLY like my grad school class. I know that because the professor pretty much laid out terms and the content was the same. Some get really advanced and there's message boards like this. There's are huge debates about if you have a class gradually get released so students get the same content at the same time or just dump the whole thing and it's all "live". If the subject is really new you might not want to dump the whole thing live.
Ironically I took the john hopkins covid tracer class and my employer said that it was coursera classes that put me over the competition in being selected. Some classes can group together for specializations and I'm working to get one this spring. First it was four classes and a capstone then midway though went to five. I guess it comes with the territory. The bad part about some of this though is if a class for whatever reason is pulled. I've saved scans of certificates as a record but sometimes this does happen. The vast majority of classes have been just myself but there was one on negotiating that did involve other students and went well. that part has to be expanded. We can have different approaches to online education, training and seminars.
The platforms you cited are designed for independent learning, as opposed to learning which is facilitated by an instructor. They aren't very interactive and the curriculum is canned. In most courses, there is no interaction with fellow students. In contrast, platforms like Blackboard have been developed and offer a wider range of options for teachers including discussion boards, assignment submission tools, reading assignment areas, learning objects, assessment tools, and multimedia options that can be customized. They are application centered toward both an instructor and the student. However, the instructor needs to be familiar with tech tools, as well as best practices for using technology and which facilitate learning, so they can take full advantage of what is available.
This might be a bit OT but my experiences with online education have varied significantly. MIT Courseware can be free but a bit boring due to the lack of interactivity. Brainbench back in the day was a joke. Technically I like Coursera and I'm willing to try MasterClass at some point. Udemy I haven't exactly heard good things about. I've had Coursera ones that were litterally a one day click though simple learning. But at the same point the one from Stanford was EXACTLY like my grad school class. I know that because the professor pretty much laid out terms and the content was the same. Some get really advanced and there's message boards like this. There's are huge debates about if you have a class gradually get released so students get the same content at the same time or just dump the whole thing and it's all "live". If the subject is really new you might not want to dump the whole thing live.
Ironically I took the john hopkins covid tracer class and my employer said that it was coursera classes that put me over the competition in being selected. Some classes can group together for specializations and I'm working to get one this spring. First it was four classes and a capstone then midway though went to five. I guess it comes with the territory. The bad part about some of this though is if a class for whatever reason is pulled. I've saved scans of certificates as a record but sometimes this does happen. The vast majority of classes have been just myself but there was one on negotiating that did involve other students and went well. that part has to be expanded. We can have different approaches to online education, training and seminars.
I apologize for my previous snarky comment, but the bolded below really shocked me. You aren't familiar with raising early learners, and you don't understand where tax dollars for public schools are focused (salaries).
Salaries are part of it but transportation and food costs are very significant, especially in large districts. Public schools have to pay for transit for charter. In some cases food is provided to Catholic schools as well but it depends on agreements.
I don't mean first grade but high school level. Obviously younger students need more direct one on one attention.
I've certainly heard the baby sitter line time and again. Heck in the 90's I recall one parent that dropped her kid off at the library and complained that he couldn't be there all day. Librarians aren't baby sitters either.
Why are you focusing only on elementary school as with the birth rate enrollment has dropped significantly post 2008?
I could understand your argument if there was no school at all. But there is. If the class assignment is passed in the same way and the kids are looking at the same content then what's really at issue? I mean if they were all given say the complete works of shakespear in volumes and there was a rainstorm that ruined them in an office OK I get that but the content is still there. In 1989 a set of encyclopedias would be envied, in 1999 it could be microsoft encarta and now it's wikipedia.
This is Massachusetts and frankly many communities compete for teachers. That can also mean increasing salaries and qualifications. Add in legal mandates to cover charter schools, transit, food, health insurance and of course the buildings to put people in and it adds up. Can we look at lowering costs? Absolutely but I wouldn't say it's *just* salary. We can't cut a lunch program. We could try eliminating prevailing wages on construction, maybe mandating solar to drive electrical costs down, running a longer year so more is covered etc. I don't have a phd in education or even a M.Ed these are the types of debates for school committees.
I highly doubt we can lower standards. If we want to gut the MCAS and the MTEL's that would be like rolling things back at least 30 years. You can say the kids might not get sick or spread it but how far are you willing to go with that? What's the legal liability here if a teacher or staff member gets it and passes away? You have to figure reasonable accommodations with work. the mass constitution does provide for a free public education but it does not specifically state that it must be conducted within a physical classroom. Much of online education in mass was actually started during the last days of governor patrick. He authorized online schools for students that were bullied, bullying, too sick to come in or had some work issue (child actors, farming etc). For years it was just on the back burner for a few. K12 inc in Greenfield goes back 10 years. the idea is if you cannot come into school for whatever reason this is the backup.
well covid is that reason and it's for everyone. the unions didn't say a peep when patrick passed this so you really can't blame them for this. If the health department doesn't give an OK then of course it isn't going to be open. We have limitations on the number of people in a building from governor to be 25 inside and 10 outside for a gathering. Ok so if you have a class of 25 ok fine but what about hallways? This is why over the summer there was the plan for the hybrid. If you are dealing with a school that's not on that level that might deal with the actual covid levels increasing as that's what happened in some districts (chicopee comes to mind) Months ago I said this would be like wack a mole and indeed that's what it has become.
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