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TUAREGS are one of the purest Amazigh Berber tribes from languages, customs, bloodlines are in the desert, they stayed away from various foreign conquest and are less mixed then the Northern Berbers who are mixed with foreign genetics. Desert tribes have been there since Herodotus stated them being seen there. Before the Greek hellene times, before Romans and other foreigners entered into the continent or coast regions of Africa. There are various types of black tribes and people across Africa, they do not all look the same, different facial features and skin colors, black-skinned, brown, reddish brown and copper colored, etc. Just as all races different skin tone types among them.
North Africa has been a melting pot for ages, the original Berbers were black; but as time went on many foreigners entered North Africa as well such as....
Phoenicians- HANNIBAL of Canaanite origins who spoke a semetic language western Asia who founded the city of Carthage.
Greeks- who set up small colonies along the coast.
Romans- who founded many cities as well.
Vandals- who were a Germanic tribe
Arabs- who made a major impact not just genetically but culturally and linguistically
1.5 million white European slave trade: 16th - 18th centuries that were brought to North Africa as slaves and this was known as the BARBARY COAST PIRATE SLAVE TRADE and white slaves were sold on the slave market of North Africa for labor and also sex slaves.
The oldest MUMMY found in North Africa was the skeleton remains of a black person. The body was shipped over-seas and tested over and over in European lab - it was over 5,000 years old as dated. The black mummy was native to a people of North Africa and Sahel, long before Euro and western Asiatic foreigners migrated and invaded North Africa - BBC/Smithsonian and theres NO signs of a white/pale population during those times! There have been false imagery of art and coins that were created by white foreign Europeans that are given white features and phenotypes on pictures and European made statues of Africans and Asians in ancient times as foreigners (these are false works, re-makes that are not made by the people themselves.... - Archeologist-scientist have noted and debunked many of these claims after careful study and detail!
You define the term Moor as black that has been addressed on this thread already other posters have addressed that issue quite well there is no need to rehash that discussion. Read the entire thread that has been addressed.
I have very little interest in the Tuareg they aren't the "Moors" that were present in the Iberian peninsula, I have posted many times academic genetic studies clearly show they weren't.
I have some knowledge about how genetics work and I'm not ignorant which you have been implying. That reveals some insecurity on your part.
Wikipedia isn't where I gather information from however it is really handy, it breaks down things really simple I suspect some people reading these posts don't have an in depth knowledge on this topic and would be bored with scholarly sources. I can backup everything I post.
The Moors were Afrikan, so yes they are/were Black. You really can't dispute this.
They were north African but they were not racially "African" or "Black" the Moors are of mix Berber and Arab origin. However, there were Africans in Moorish society, hopefully you can understand the difference. Kind of like how there are Turks in German society but they themselves are not of Germanic origin.
TUAREGS are one of the purest Amazigh Berber tribes from languages, customs, bloodlines are in the desert, they stayed away from various foreign conquest and are less mixed then the Northern Berbers who are mixed with foreign genetics. Desert tribes have been there since Herodotus stated them being seen there. Before the Greek hellene times, before Romans and other foreigners entered into the continent or coast regions of Africa. There are various types of black tribes and people across Africa, they do not all look the same, different facial features and skin colors, black-skinned, brown, reddish brown and copper colored, etc. Just as all races different skin tone types among them.
North Africa has been a melting pot for ages, the original Berbers were black; but as time went on many foreigners entered North Africa as well such as....
Phoenicians- HANNIBAL of Canaanite origins who spoke a semetic language western Asia who founded the city of Carthage.
Greeks- who set up small colonies along the coast.
Romans- who founded many cities as well.
Vandals- who were a Germanic tribe
Arabs- who made a major impact not just genetically but culturally and linguistically
1.5 million white European slave trade: 16th - 18th centuries that were brought to North Africa as slaves and this was known as the BARBARY COAST PIRATE SLAVE TRADE and white slaves were sold on the slave market of North Africa for labor and also sex slaves.
The oldest MUMMY found in North Africa was the skeleton remains of a black person. The body was shipped over-seas and tested over and over in European lab - it was over 5,000 years old as dated. The black mummy was native to a people of North Africa and Sahel, long before Euro and western Asiatic foreigners migrated and invaded North Africa - BBC/Smithsonian and theres NO signs of a white/pale population during those times! There have been false imagery of art and coins that were created by white foreign Europeans that are given white features and phenotypes on pictures and European made statues of Africans and Asians in ancient times as foreigners (these are false works, re-makes that are not made by the people themselves.... - Archeologist-scientist have noted and debunked many of these claims after careful study and detail!
1.A laughable claim clearly a LIE 50% of their maternal lineages mtDNA originate outside of sub-Saharan Africa and are quite diverse. Take a look at the last column labeled haplogroup Table 2.
What do we have here the majority of the paternal lineages found in the Tuareg are clearly mostly the result of back migration.:think:
"Interestingly, for the Y chromosome, the dominant haplogroup in North Africa as well as the Tuareg is E1b1b1b. This haplogroup was associated with Neolithic diffusion in North Africa,"
Y chromosome pool in Tuareg
From the 20 branches of the Y chromosome tree, which could be discriminated by the analyses performed, only 7 were observed in our Tuareg population sample (Supplementary Material SM7). Again, from this perspective of Y chromosome diversity, TTan is closer to sub-Saharan populations than the other two Tuareg populations, presenting 5.6% of the old AB lineages and 44.4% of E1b1a, whereas TGor and TGos have, respectively, 16.7 and 9.1% of E1b1a. Curiously, TTan also presents the highest frequency (33.3%) of West Eurasian R1b lineages whereas TGor presents only 5.6% of lineage K* (xO,P), and TGos presents none. There were no instances of the Eurasian J haplogroup in the Tuareg, which is otherwise frequent in North Africa (an average of 20%; see Arredi et al45), and attains the highest frequency in the Middle East (around 50%; see Semino et al)46.
The dominant haplogroup in TGor (77.8%) and TGos (81.8%) is E1b1b1b, which has a much lower frequency in TTan (11.1%). This haplogroup reaches a mean frequency of 42% in North Africa, decreasing in frequency from 76% in Morocco to ~10% in Egypt.45 Arredi et al45 dated this haplogroup in North Africa from 2800 to 9800 YBP, associating its expansion with the Neolithic demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic-speaking pastoralists from the Middle East.
In case you missed it here it is again.
'The dominant haplogroup in TGor (77.8%) and TGos (81.8%) is E1b1b1b, which has a much lower frequency in TTan (11.1%). This haplogroup reaches a mean frequency of 42% in North Africa, decreasing in frequency from 76% in Morocco to ~10% in Egypt.45 Arredi et al45 dated this haplogroup in North Africa from 2800 to 9800 YBP, associating its expansion with the Neolithic demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic-speaking pastoralists from the Middle East.'
Populations from the Near East(Eurasia) were present in north Africa much earlier than 5,000 YBP. You clearly don't read enough DNA studies and update your knowledge base on the subject. I think that you have a very poor understanding of the current science in addition to relying on outdated information.
2. Absolute misinformation the maghrebi dna component found in north Africans has been in north Africa >12,000 YBP and is the result of back migration from the middle east.
It is clear now who the delusional one is, that would be your sir.
I would like to see your attempt at debunking this DNA study.
Moorish American what do your DNA results show? Let's take a look at how Moorish(Moroccan) DNA you are admixed with. Hint, it shows up as North African on your results.
LMAO! You keep exposing yourself and now I know for a fact the only thing your doing is googling anything you can find to debunk what I'm saying. You have yet to even address my historical facts! Anybody can see all you're doing is copy and pasting DNA studies and you're not proving to me how the Berbers were NOT majority black, but instead your giving me links that are not even credible! I'm not delusional I actually went to school and studied these things you're just some internet wannabe scholar with false sources. One of the most important substances in a debate is who you get it from and with all these studies your trying to give me you they are not even showing me the actual scientist who conducted these studies
I even went to your link and it never gave me a source of information nor not ONE scholar or scientist as an reference, therefore you're just pulling things out of your ass and like I said before you have yet to address my historical facts or my information but yet you skip over it and copy and paste non-credible sources and information with NO references and anybody who's following this conversation can see this. All you're doing is giving me info that only fits your agenda. I'm about to show the people how you gather information with real authentic sources!
Associate Professor of African Studies Ivan Van Sertima:"BLACK MOORS were in every corner in Europe"
ORIGIN AND DEVELOPMENT OF THE TERM.
The origins of the term remain elusive. Its derivation from the Semitic etymon mahourím, "people of the West," is questionable, and the Arabic al-Mar is extremely rare and does not occur in Andalusi Arabic sources. Mauroi is late Greek and may have been derived from the Latin ethnic name Mauri, both meaning "dark ones." Following the destruction of Carthage in 146 B.C.E., the term mauri was used to indicate the tribes inhabiting the Roman provinces of Mauretania, corresponding to modern-day western Algeria and northeastern Morocco.
In the Latin Middle Ages, Mauri referred to a mixture of Berbers and Arabs inhabiting the coastal regions of Northwest Africa. In Spain, Portugal, and Italy, Mauri became Moros (Maures in French). More commonly, however, it was a racial designation for dark-skinned or black peoples, as in its English usage, which is seen as early as the fourteenth century. -Bridging Cultures Bookshelf: Muslim Journeys and my sources have plenty of book from plenty of authors that can be studied and validated (unless you're scared to read outside of GOOGLE)
ETHNIC COMPOSITION.
The Moors do not constitute a well-defined ethnic group, and, unlike the Mongols, they do not represent a clearly identifiable tribal confederacy. They are, rather, a large and diffuse ethnic group consisting primarily of sub-Saharan Africans (Mauritania, Northern Senegal, and Western Mali), Berbers (Morocco and Western Algeria), Arab Bedouins, and a landed Arab elite (primarily from Yemen and Syria). In most writings on the Moors, darkness of skin has been applied as a characteristic for any and every Muslim invader of Europe. The Islamic conquest of North Africa (Ifriqiyya) throughout the eighth century, and the existing tribal and social contentions among these various groups, led to the consolidation of rival confederacies. The Arab element among the Moors was always a minority, with the majority entering from North Africa during the conquest of the area or as migrant soldiers reinforcing existing armies. The system of walaʿ, or forced conversion, led to significant racial mixing among Arabs, Berbers, and other Africans—in addition to Visigoths and numerous Slavs (saqaliba)—thus forging a highly diverse Muslim population in the Maghrib and al-Andalus. (AND THIS IS FROM ASSOULINE DAVID IN THE OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE ISLAMIC WORLD. OXFORD ISLAMIC STUDIES)- Log In - Oxford Islamic Studies Online.
The Moors, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, "commonly supposed to be mostly black or very swarthy, and hence the word is often used for negro." Dr. Chancellor Williams stated that "The original Moors, like the original Egyptians, were Black Africans."
At the beginning of the eighth century Moorish soldiers crossed over from Africa into Spain, Portugal, and France, where their swift victories became the substance of legends. To the Christians of early Europe there was no question regarding the ethnicity of the Moors, and numerous sources support the view that the Moors were a black-skinned people. Morien, for example, is the adventure of a heroic Moorish knight supposed to have lived during the days of King Arthur. Morien is described as "all black: his head, his body, and his hands were all black." In the French epic known as the Song of Roland the Moors are described as "blacker than ink." William Shakespeare used the word Moor as a synonym for African. Christopher Marlowe used African and Moor interchangeably. Arab writers further buttress the Black identity of the Moors. The powerful Moorish emperor Yusuf ben-Tachfin is described by an Arab chronicler as "a brown man with wooly hair."
Black soldiers, specifically identified as Moors, were actively recruited by Rome, and served in Britain, France, Switzerland, Austria, Hungary, Poland, and Romania. St. Maurice, patron saint of medieval Europe, was only one of many Black soldiers and officers under the employ of the Roman Empire. After the invasion of 711 came other waves of Moors even darker. It was this occupation of Portugal which accounts for the fact that even noble families had absorbed the blood of the Moor. From that time onwards, racial mixing in Portugal, as in Spain, and elsewhere in Europe which came under the influence of Moors, took place on a large scale. That is why historians claim "Portugal is in reality a Negroid land," and that when Napoleon explained that "Africa begins at the Pyrenees," he meant every word that he uttered. Even the world-famed shrine in Portugal, Fatima, where Catholic pilgrims from all over the world go in search of miracle cures for their afflictions, owes its origin to the Moors. The story goes that a Portuguese nobleman was so saddened by the death of his wife, a young Moorish beauty whom he had married after her conversion to the Christian faith, that he gave up his title and fortune and entered a monastery. His wife was buried on a high plateau called Sierra de Aire. It is from there the name of Fatima is derived. The Moors ruled and occupied Lisbon and the rest of the country until well into the twelfth century. They were finally defeated and driven out by the forces of King Alfonso Henriques, who was aided by English and Flemish crusaders. The scene of this battle was the Castelo de Sao Jorge or, in English, the Castle of St. George. Today it still stands overlooking the city of "Lashbuna"--as the Moors named Lisbon.
The history of black people in Spain forms a unique part of the diasporic experience of sub-Saharan Africa. Long before the advent of the transatlantic slave trade in the Iberian Peninsula, blacks had crossed the narrow strait between North Africa and Spain. No doubt present to some extent during Roman and Visigothic times, they arrived in much greater numbers as part of the Muslim conquest of Spain in the early eighth century. There they entered into an especially checkered relationship with the remaining Christian powers, being perceived as a threatening foreign presence because of their race as well as their Islamic faith. It is perhaps in Spain that the personification of the black as demonic threat first entered the consciousness of medieval Christian Europe. -Black Moors in Middle Ages: Painting Depicts Religious Struggles in Spain - The Root
In these redemption stories, the Moor was regarded as the ultimate enemy, whose hold on Spanish territory was to be broken at all costs. Although Moors were not considered black per se, in the case of the present image they could certainly be represented as such. The black Moor in this story occupies a compromised position within the political and religious struggles that were transforming Spain during the Middle Ages. Initially seen as a figure of evil, he gains some degree of acceptance through his conversion to Christianity. His recumbent pose here is a convenient metaphor for the suspended state of agency faced by blacks as the situation in Spain moved from tolerance under Muslim rule to a much more tentative inclusion in societies governed by Christian monarchs. The Image of the Black in Western Art Archive resides at Harvard University's W.E.B. Du Bois Institute for African and African American Research. The director of the W.E.B. Du Bois Institute is Henry Louis Gates Jr., who is also The Root's editor-in-chief. The archive and Harvard University Press collaborated to create The Image of the Black in Western Art book series, eight volumes of which were edited by Gates and David Bindman and published by Harvard University Press.Black Moors in Middle Ages: Painting Depicts Religious Struggles in Spain - The Root
LMAO! You keep exposing yourself and now I know for a fact the only thing your doing is googling anything you can find to debunk what I'm saying. You have yet to even address my historical facts! I'm not delusional I actually went to school and studied these things you're just some internet wannabe scholar with false sources. One of the most important substances in a debate is who you get it from and with all these studies your trying to give me you they are not even showing me the actual scientist who conducted these studies
I even went to your link and it never gave me a source of information nor not ONE scholar or scientist as an reference, therefore you're just pulling things out of your ass and like I said before you have yet to address my historical facts or my information but yet you skip over it and copy and paste non-credible sources and information with NO references and anybody who's following this conversation can see this. All you're doing is giving me info that only fits your agenda. I'm about to show the people how you gather information with real authentic sources!
Associate Professor of African Studies Ivan Van Sertima:"BLACK MOORS were in every corner in Europe"
ORIGIN AND DEVELOPMENT OF THE TERM.
The origins of the term remain elusive. Its derivation from the Semitic etymon mahourím, "people of the West," is questionable, and the Arabic al-Mar is extremely rare and does not occur in Andalusi Arabic sources. Mauroi is late Greek and may have been derived from the Latin ethnic name Mauri, both meaning "dark ones." Following the destruction of Carthage in 146 B.C.E., the term mauri was used to indicate the tribes inhabiting the Roman provinces of Mauretania, corresponding to modern-day western Algeria and northeastern Morocco.
In the Latin Middle Ages, Mauri referred to a mixture of Berbers and Arabs inhabiting the coastal regions of Northwest Africa. In Spain, Portugal, and Italy, Mauri became Moros (Maures in French). More commonly, however, it was a racial designation for dark-skinned or black peoples, as in its English usage, which is seen as early as the fourteenth century. -Bridging Cultures Bookshelf: Muslim Journeys and my sources have plenty of book from plenty of authors that can be studied and validated (unless you're scared to read outside of GOOGLE)
ETHNIC COMPOSITION.
The Moors do not constitute a well-defined ethnic group, and, unlike the Mongols, they do not represent a clearly identifiable tribal confederacy. They are, rather, a large and diffuse ethnic group consisting primarily of sub-Saharan Africans (Mauritania, Northern Senegal, and Western Mali), Berbers (Morocco and Western Algeria), Arab Bedouins, and a landed Arab elite (primarily from Yemen and Syria). In most writings on the Moors, darkness of skin has been applied as a characteristic for any and every Muslim invader of Europe. The Islamic conquest of North Africa (Ifriqiyya) throughout the eighth century, and the existing tribal and social contentions among these various groups, led to the consolidation of rival confederacies. The Arab element among the Moors was always a minority, with the majority entering from North Africa during the conquest of the area or as migrant soldiers reinforcing existing armies. The system of walaʿ, or forced conversion, led to significant racial mixing among Arabs, Berbers, and other Africans—in addition to Visigoths and numerous Slavs (saqaliba)—thus forging a highly diverse Muslim population in the Maghrib and al-Andalus. (AND THIS IS FROM ASSOULINE DAVID IN THE OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE ISLAMIC WORLD. OXFORD ISLAMIC STUDIES)- Log In - Oxford Islamic Studies Online.
The Moors, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, "commonly supposed to be mostly black or very swarthy, and hence the word is often used for negro." Dr. Chancellor Williams stated that "The original Moors, like the original Egyptians, were Black Africans."
At the beginning of the eighth century Moorish soldiers crossed over from Africa into Spain, Portugal, and France, where their swift victories became the substance of legends. To the Christians of early Europe there was no question regarding the ethnicity of the Moors, and numerous sources support the view that the Moors were a black-skinned people. Morien, for example, is the adventure of a heroic Moorish knight supposed to have lived during the days of King Arthur. Morien is described as "all black: his head, his body, and his hands were all black." In the French epic known as the Song of Roland the Moors are described as "blacker than ink." William Shakespeare used the word Moor as a synonym for African. Christopher Marlowe used African and Moor interchangeably. Arab writers further buttress the Black identity of the Moors. The powerful Moorish emperor Yusuf ben-Tachfin is described by an Arab chronicler as "a brown man with wooly hair."
Black soldiers, specifically identified as Moors, were actively recruited by Rome, and served in Britain, France, Switzerland, Austria, Hungary, Poland, and Romania. St. Maurice, patron saint of medieval Europe, was only one of many Black soldiers and officers under the employ of the Roman Empire. After the invasion of 711 came other waves of Moors even darker. It was this occupation of Portugal which accounts for the fact that even noble families had absorbed the blood of the Moor. From that time onwards, racial mixing in Portugal, as in Spain, and elsewhere in Europe which came under the influence of Moors, took place on a large scale. That is why historians claim "Portugal is in reality a Negroid land," and that when Napoleon explained that "Africa begins at the Pyrenees," he meant every word that he uttered. Even the world-famed shrine in Portugal, Fatima, where Catholic pilgrims from all over the world go in search of miracle cures for their afflictions, owes its origin to the Moors. The story goes that a Portuguese nobleman was so saddened by the death of his wife, a young Moorish beauty whom he had married after her conversion to the Christian faith, that he gave up his title and fortune and entered a monastery. His wife was buried on a high plateau called Sierra de Aire. It is from there the name of Fatima is derived. The Moors ruled and occupied Lisbon and the rest of the country until well into the twelfth century. They were finally defeated and driven out by the forces of King Alfonso Henriques, who was aided by English and Flemish crusaders. The scene of this battle was the Castelo de Sao Jorge or, in English, the Castle of St. George. Today it still stands overlooking the city of "Lashbuna"--as the Moors named Lisbon.
"Anybody can see all you're doing is copy and pasting DNA studies and you're not proving to me how the Berbers were NOT majority black, but instead your giving me links that are not even credible!"
False it is obvious you don't understand the science of genetics. You rely on your Afrocentric Lies! Genetics is science which is verifiable I have posted good links it is obvious you are used to addressing an audience of imbeciles and thieves. The so-called history you post relies on the honesty of the historians which have written them just like the Koran and much of the Bible which I consider trash mostly unverifiable useless nonsense.
The only tool to answer what the ancestry of the Moors were is genetics period! Not your false history which you have convinced yourself is true. In regards to why I have not responded to your history the answer is plain and simple it isn't worthy of a response.
Regarding the story of the "young Moorish beauty" married to the Portuguese nobleman nuances in the Portuguese language don't translate well into English the word is "mourisca" which I am familiar with from reading Portuguese slave records. The word was used in slave records to describe an Iberian woman formerly of Muslim faith.
None of your posts on Portugal prove that the Moors were black which they weren't the DNA of the current population proves that. Once again your theory is completely destroyed by the simple fact that paternal lineages with origins in Sub-Saharan Africa are almost completely absent and the vast majority of the maternal lineages of Sub-Saharan origin are as a result of slave trade which started after the 15th century.
I did notice you did not respond to the Tuareg genetic study.
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