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Seriously, would it suffice to say that Berber's are an ethnic group, meaning a shared but specific culture, comprised of a genetically diverse population and be done with this?
Seriously, would it suffice to say that Berber's are an ethnic group, meaning a shared but specific culture, comprised of a genetically diverse population and be done with this?
No it wouldn't I love discussing the topic and as long as someone want's to exchange ideas I'm up for it. There is always more to learn Morocco is one of my favorite counties.
There is so much misinformation about the Berbers. I do understand the Afrocentric view on the Moors I did take African-American studies in college I just disagree.
As you can see it encompasses modern Morocco and a large swath of current northern Algeria, right?
Now, "moor" is the English equivalent of the term "moro" present in all Romance languages (in Italian it is "moro").
The term is related to "Maurus" which means an inhabitant of "MAURetania", from this word it came out "Morus" which the medieval latin corruption of "maurus".
There's no Ancient Greek equivalent, "mauros" is a modern Greek term for Black, otherwise every single Ancient Greek dictionary will tell you this.
Isidore of Seville included the term "mauron" as if Latin "maurus" derives from that, but it's not.
Isidore was writing in the 7th century, the Greek to which he referred was far different from Ancient Greek.
This does not change the fact that in Isidore's day the word moor was equivalent with blacks, the indigenous inhabitants of North Africa who were dark-skinned. The 7th century is part of Ancient history. The Greek being spoken and written in that time would have been Ancient Greek, at least technically speaking. There is nothing surprising about Ancient Greek in the 7th century being different from Ancient Classical Greek from the time of Homer. The point of my quote is that the people of Isidore's day used the word moor synonymously with the word black to refer to the inhabitants of North Africa. Nothing you have said so far changes that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xander.XVII
Now, while we can agree that indeed there Black berbers, people inhabiting the region of Mauretania (the one above-linked) are largely and predominantly light-skinned, call them olive-skinned, swarthy, as you prefer.
In fact, "moor" in Romance language nowadays does NOT mean "Black", it means a darker complexion similar to that a tanned person or, at least in Italian, even someone with Black hair.
Nobody would use "moor" (in Italian "moro") to describe a Black (which technically means nothing, but here we mean a person with predominantly sub-saharan traits).
Now, to suggest that inhabitants of Roman Mauretania (alias, modern Morocco and North-western Algeria) were largely and predominantly Black (that means with sub-saharan traits) and that, "magically" they vanished is quite ludicrous isn't it?
If inhabitants of Roman Mauretania were all Black, how it comes that nowadays the population of both the region and Spain (an area settled by them for 700 years) is nowhere Black?
I mean, were they all killed and "white-washed" by evil whites?
I don't think so.
The point is not whether Black berbers exist, they do (and I expressed myself badly previously), the point is that they never were the majority of such ethnic group.
Okay so now you admit that Black people in North Africa do exist? That's a start. You don't perceive that light-skinned and swarthy mean the exact oppossite of each other? You are beginning to make a mockery of language.
I don't care what moor means in modern Romance languages. I only care about what Moor meant in the time of Ancient Rome, Ancient Greece, Medieval Europe. And I don't know what you mean by Sub-Saharan traits. And you sound seriously confused. One minute you are saying that Black Berbers exist, next minute you are saying the word black does not mean anything and nobody deserves to be called black. Man, take a deep breath.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xander.XVII
Berbers aren't defined by their Islamic faith, Berbers are some of the oldest inhabitants of Northern Africa, I'll quote Wiki to sum up my point:
Μαῦροι is read in "Mauroi" and it does NOT mean "Black", there's no connection whatsoever because the term "Mauros" did NOT exist in Ancient Greek. Isidore makes reference to the Greek spoken around his age which was far far different from the Greek spoken when "Maurus" was coined as a term.
The term "Moor" then was used as reference to Islamic North Africans but it was used as a poor broad term to describe all populaces of North Africa: this means both Arabs and Berbers.
The Greek spoken in the time of Isidore was language whose speakers associated the word moor with black. Stop confusing yourself young man. My quote makes that very clear:
Quote:
Indeed, by the time Isidore of Seville came to write his Etymologies, the word Maurus or ‘Moor’ had become an adjective in Latin, ‘for the Greeks call black, mauron’. In Isidore’s day, Moors were black by definition…” (Staying Roman: Conquest and identity in Africa and the Mediterranean, 439-700. Jonathan Conant, 2012 Cambridge University Press.)
What is it in that quote you cannot understand. It sates clearly that by the time Isidore wrote his etymologies Moors were black by definition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xander.XVII
I don't honestly understand all these attempts to define all Moors inclusively as a "Black" when:
a) Such a definition does NOT exist in any field: it doesn't mean anything in history, linguistics, genetics, nothing.
b) Black is a loose term for a multitude of different ethnicities: it's a stupid term which doesn't mean anything.
A Fulani from West Africa has nothing in common with a Khoisan in South-Africa and a Bantu has nothing to do with a Masai from Kenya.
c) It's stupid because it tries to suggest that the strength and power of the Caliphate of El-Andalus is somehow tied to race as to suggest that all credits are only because of Blacks, when it's largely recognised that the culture behind El Andalus was Arabic in all its forms.
I have no idea what that little speech was about. Every time Eurocentrics get caught spinning tales about indigenous Ancient White Africans, they come up with weird and elaborate redefinitions of the word black. We are not the ones describing Moors as black. We are simply pointing out that Europeans of the past regularly did so. Your argument is little more than pointing out that the majority of Berbers in some parts of North Africa are light-skin so that means in the past that they were predominantly white. This is not an argument to be taken seriously.
Last edited by mansamusa; 07-20-2015 at 11:21 PM..
This does not change the fact that in Isidore's day the word moor was equivalent with blacks, the indigenous inhabitants of North Africa who were dark-skinned. The 7th century is part of Ancient history. The Greek being spoken and written in that time would have been Ancient Greek, at least technically speaking. There is nothing surprising about Ancient Greek in the 7th century being different from Ancient Classical Greek from the time of Homer. The point of my quote is that the people of Isidore's day used the word moor synonymously with the word black to refer to the inhabitants of North Africa. Nothing you have said so far changes that.
Okay so now you admit that Black people in North Africa do exist? That's a start. You don't perceive that light-skinned and swarthy mean the exact oppossite of each other? You are beginning to make a mockery of language.
I don't care what moor means in modern Romance languages. I only care about what Moor meant in the time of Ancient Rome, Ancient Greece, Medieval Europe. And I don't know what you mean by Sub-Saharan traits. And you sound seriously confused. One minute you are saying that Black Berbers exist, next minute you are saying the word black does not mean anything and nobody deserves to be called black. Man, take a deep breath.
The 7th century isn't "Ancient history", it's the Middle-Age.
I didn't say anything about what or what not they meant with that word, I simply pointed out that Isidore and your etymology are plainly wrong, just that.
I already told what it meant during Ancient Age: "Moor" meant an inhabitant of Roman region of Mauretania, i.e. modern Morocco and NW Algeria, nothing more.
If, for you, those regions are natively inhabited by a majority of Blacks, then probably you must have visited another region.
I also asked, and you obviously bewared not to answer, some simple questions (which, by the way, went unanswered all along the thread):
If Moor were the large majority of Moor armies how does it come that nowadays Black people are not the majority in neither Morocco nor Algeria? How does it come that there's no genetic imprint on them? How is it that there are no Black legacies in terms of genetics and aspect's features in Spain,Morocco and Algeria? How is it that the culture, religion and legacy of Moors was and is predominantly Arabic and Berber?
Do you really believe that if just 2000 years ago (or better, 1300 given that Spain was invaded in 711) the people inhabiting Morocco and Algeria were Black, they could be nowadays any different?
How is it possible that nowadays the population of that region is not Black if 2000 years it was?
Oh, before you begin your spin about "there are Black berbers too", it's convenient to remind you that out circa 28 million Berbers spread all over North Africa, circa 25 million of them lives in Morocco and Algeria (plus 1 million of Algerians/Moroccans of Berber descent in France), this means 92% of them.
I don't know "ignorant, white supremacist" you think I am, but I guess you'll agree that Berbers living in that area are not Black, won't you?
And another question, what do you mean with Black? Just someone darker than white (then practically almost all Africans are Black)? Someone from a specific ethnicity (and there are thousands of different ones in Africa)?
The Moors were black. This is why Spanish people get 2-5% African in DNA tests. Far more than any other Europeans.
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