were the Moors black? (comparison, society, ancient, Egypt)

[AFP]

Originally Posted by mansamusa

I am fully aware that Semitic languages are believed to have derived from the Middle East. Berber is not a semitic language though and is found no where else outside of Africa.

I have read this paper. Could you please tell me how it supports the idea of white Berbers. I don't remember reading any such implication from its results. Do you have anything else besides these genetic studies to back your opinion?

"Africa is usually seen as a source of outward migrations, but the genomes suggest a major migration into Africa by farmers from the Middle East, possibly about 3500 years ago. These farmers’ DNA reached deep into the continent, spreading even to groups considered isolated, such as the Khoisan of South Africa and the pygmies of the Congo"----This is from your paper. The time frame does not add up especially since you claim that "Morocco is inhabited by Berbers (imazighen) since at least 5,000 years ago. Some estimate the presence of Berbers to be 8000+ years old." The study makes reference to remains younger than 5000 years ago. yet you are trying to tie Berbers to some back migration of Middle Eastern Farmers. And are you aware of the cranial studies done on Middle Eastern Farmers via the discovery of the Natufians. The "subsaharan element in teh Natufians is so obvious, it is even present in the first farnmers of Macedonia who tehy interbred with.

What does any of this have to do with Berbers being black or white?

Berber languages are classified as Afro-Asiatic as previously discussed. In Africa there are strong genetic links in regards to what languages are spoken it is imperative to note that Berbers diverged from Near Eastern populations.

Read this study the Maghrebi component is the indigenous Berber component and it diverged from Near Eastern and Mediterranean populations >11,000 YBP, the study also indicates the Sub-Saharan African component was not present in Berber populations prior to 1,200 YBP . You must weigh the totality of the evidence in addition there have been many back migrations from Eurasia.

PLOS Genetics: Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations

[mansamusa]

Originally Posted by AFP

Berber languages are classified as Afro-Asiatic as previously discussed. In Africa there are strong genetic links in regards to what languages are spoken it is imperative to note that Berbers diverged from Near Eastern populations.

There is no historical evidence to support this silliness.

Originally Posted by AFP

Read this study the Maghrebi component is the indigenous Berber component and it diverged from Near Eastern and Mediterranean populations >11,000 YBP, the study also indicates the Sub-Saharan African component was not present in Berber populations prior to 1,200 YBP . You must weigh the totality of the evidence in addition there have been many back migrations from Eurasia.

PLOS Genetics: Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations

It is just one study, there are others even more recent, which tie North Africans with other Subsahran Africans. And besides there is not a scarp of historical or archaeological evidence to support this study.

[AFP]

Originally Posted by mansamusa

It is just one study, there are others even more recent, which tie North Africans with other Subsahran Africans. And besides there is not a scarp of historical or archaeological evidence to support this study.

Apparently you aren't familiar with the Iberomaurusian culture present in the Maghreb 20,000 YBP.

The study is quite well done I gather you don't dispute it. The study does indicate that Sub-Saharan African admixture was introduced in southern Morocco approximately 1,200 YPB and is a minor component in current Berber populations. The Sub-Saharan component in Berbers is more recent than the European and Near Eastern. Ancient remains from the Iberomaurusian period which dates back >20,000 YBP from sites in Northern Morocco were analyzed the mtDNA(mitochondrial) results indicated maternal lineages U6, H, JT, and V none of which are Sub-Saharan. The remains are 12,000 years old.

Read in the following link section U6 spreads in Africa is particularly interesting a ton of good information in that section.
The history of the North African mitochondrial DNA haplogroup U6 gene flow into the African, Eurasian and American continents | BMC Evolutionary Biology | Full Text

Post the recent studies you indicate tie North Africans with Sub-Saharan Africans.

[mansamusa]

Originally Posted by AFP

Apparently you aren't familiar with the Iberomaurusian culture present in the Maghreb 20,000 YBP..

20 000 years ago, the people in the Maghrenb would have looked similar to other Sub Saharan Africans. the same can be said about Soutrh West Asians and even Europeans.

Originally Posted by AFP

The study is quite well done I gather you don't dispute it. The study does indicate that Sub-Saharan African admixture was introduced in southern Morocco approximately 1,200 YPB and is a minor component in current Berber populations. The Sub-Saharan component in Berbers is more recent than the European and Near Eastern. Ancient remains from the Iberomaurusian period which dates back >20,000 YBP from sites in Northern Morocco were analyzed the mtDNA(mitochondrial) results indicated maternal lineages U6, H, JT, and V none of which are Sub-Saharan. The remains are 12,000 years old.

Read in the following link in the section U6 spreads in Africa a ton of good information in that section.
The history of the North African mitochondrial DNA haplogroup U6 gene flow into the African, Eurasian and American continents | BMC Evolutionary Biology | Full Text

Post your studies that tie North Africans with Sub-Saharan Africans.

The dominant haplogroup of N. Africa is E1b1, derived from Ethiopia, Sub Saharan Africa. :

Haplogroup E1b1b (formerly known as E3b) represents the last major direct
migration from Africa into Europe. It is believed to have first appeared in the
Horn of Africa approximately 26,000 years ago and dispersed to North Africa and
the Near East during the late Paleolithic and Mesolithic periods. E1b1b lineages
are closely linked to the diffusion of Afroasiatic
languages.


The highest genetic diversity of haplogroup E1b1b is observed in Northeast
Africa, especially in Ethiopia and Somalia, which also have the monopoly of
older and rarer branches like M281, V6 or V92. Ethiopians and Somalians belong
mostly to the V22 and V32 (downstream of V12) subclades, but possess also a
minority of M81, M123 and V42 subclades. Among the main subclades of E1b1b only
V13 and V65 are absent from the Horn of Africa, and probably originated in
northern Africa (V65) or the southern Levant (V13).Haplogroup E1b1b (Y-DNA) - Eupedia

[AFP]

Originally Posted by mansamusa

20 000 years ago, the people in the Maghrenb would have looked similar to other Sub Saharan Africans. the same can be said about Soutrh West Asians and even Europeans.

The dominant haplogroup of N. Africa is E1b1, derived from Ethiopia, Sub Saharan Africa. :

The MtDNA samples from the remains found in Taforalt and Afalou 12,000 YBP as I mentioned were H, U6, JT, and V those are not of Sub-Saharan origins.

What evidence are you basing your assertion that Europeans looked similar to Sub-Saharan Africans 20,000 YBP?

E1b1b(E-M81) is Native to North Africa and appeared approximately 5,500 YBP and all E-M81 men are descended from the same man in addtion E1b1b(E-M215) is believed to have origins in North East Africa perhaps 26,000 YBP again keep in mind all E-M215 men are also descended from the same man.

[mansamusa]

Originally Posted by AFP

The MtDNA samples from the remains found in Taforalt and Afalou 12,000 YBP as I mentioned were H, U6, JT, and V those are not of Sub-Saharan origins.

What evidence are you basing your assertion that Europeans looked similar to Sub-Saharan Africans 20,000 YBP?.

Well it could represent migration from the Middle East. But where is the evidence that these people were responsible for teh culture and language and ethnicity of the historical Berbers in the Ancient and Medieval era?

In terms of what Europeans looked like 20 000 years ago, Cro-Magnon man and Grimaldi Man would be rrepresentative. They both show affinities with Sub-Saharan populations.
Facial reconstruction of Cro-Magnon: KUNSTKAMERA Gerasimov

This as well: European genetic identity may stretch back 36,000 years | Science | AAAS

Scientists reveal face of the first European - Telegraph

Originally Posted by AFP

E1b1b(E-M81) is Native to North Africa and appeared approximately 5,500 YBP and all E-M81 men are descended from the same man in addtion E1b1b(E-M215) is believed to have origins in North East Africa perhaps 26,000 YBP again keep in mind all E-M215 men are also descended from the same man.

Would you please link this data with your theory that Berbers were black but non-negroid. How does this prove your case, exactly? If E-M125 is the parent clade , the sub-haplogroups which derived from it such as E-M81 arose among populations, while residing in North East Africa who later migrated into North West Africa or the Maghreb or alternatively these sub-haplogroups arose after the migration from the horn of Africa into the Maghreb. How does this help your case? The highest frequencies of E-M81 is found among Tuareg, black Berbers:

E-M81 is the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in North

Africa, dominated by its subclade E-M183. It is thought to have
originated in the area of North Africa 5,600 years ago[SIZE=2][2][/SIZE][SIZE=2][30][/SIZE] or 13,900 years
ago.[SIZE=2][31][/SIZE] This haplogroup
reaches a mean frequency of 42% in North Africa, decreasing in frequency from
approximately 80% or more in some Moroccan Berber populations, including
Saharawis, to approximately 10% to the east of this range in Egypt.[SIZE=2][30][/SIZE][SIZE=2][32][/SIZE][SIZE=2][33][/SIZE] Because of its
prevalence among these groups and also others such as Mozabite, Middle Atlas, Kabyle and other Berber groups, it is sometimes referred to as a
genetic "Berber marker". Pereira et al. 2010 report high levels
amongst Tuareg in two Saharan populations - 77.8%
near Gorom-Gorom, in Burkina Faso, and 81.8% from
Gosi in Mali. There was a
much lower frequency of 11.1% in the vicinity of Tanut in the Republic of Niger. E-M81 is also quite common among
North African Arabic-speaking groups. It is generally
found at frequencies around 45% in coastal cities of North Africa (Oran,
Tizi Ouzou, Algiers, Tunis, Sousse).[SIZE=2][30][/SIZE][SIZE=2][34][/SIZE]

[AFP]

Originally Posted by mansamusa

Well it could represent migration from the Middle East. But where is the evidence that these people were responsible for teh culture and language and ethnicity of the historical Berbers in the Ancient and Medieval era?

In terms of what Europeans looked like 20 000 years ago, Cro-Magnon man and Grimaldi Man would be rrepresentative. They both show affinities with Sub-Saharan populations.
Facial reconstruction of Cro-Magnon: KUNSTKAMERA Gerasimov

This as well: European genetic identity may stretch back 36,000 years | Science | AAAS

Scientists reveal face of the first European - Telegraph

Would you please link this data with your theory that Berbers were black but non-negroid. How does this prove your case, exactly? If E-M125 is the parent clade , the sub-haplogroups which derived from it such as E-M81 arose among populations, while residing in North East Africa who later migrated into North West Africa or the Maghreb or alternatively these sub-haplogroups arose after the migration from the horn of Africa into the Maghreb. How does this help your case? The highest frequencies of E-M81 is found among Tuareg, black Berbers:

1. I have been saying that all along.

2. Here are the admixture results for Kostenski man that lived 36,000 YBP he clearly was mixed.


Kit Num: F999936
Threshold of components set to 1.000
Threshold of method set to 0.25%
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
Gedmatch.Com

puntDNAL K10 Ancient 4-Ancestors Oracle

This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: Alexandr.Burnashev@gmail.com
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

puntDNAL K10 Ancient Oracle

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 WHG 32.64
2 CHG 16.96
3 ENF 13.73
4 ASI 13.32
5 Oceanian 7.51
6 Sub-Saharan 6.51
7 Amerindian 4.52
8 Beringian 1.85
9 E_Asian 1.55
10 Siberian 1.41


Finished reading population data. 108 populations found.
10 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Mordovian @ 25.516335
2 Irish @ 25.739201
3 Hungarian @ 25.793608
4 Croatian @ 25.979576
5 English_South @ 26.022257
6 Chuvash @ 26.275232
7 Ukrainian @ 26.431505
8 Utahn_white @ 26.685986
9 Czech @ 26.963064
10 Scottish_West @ 27.053989
11 Bulgarian @ 27.116571
12 German_North @ 27.462696
13 German_South @ 27.505117
14 Finnish @ 27.546776
15 Russian @ 27.824083
16 Norwegian @ 27.944401
17 French @ 28.332525
18 Icelandic @ 28.340847
19 Belarusian @ 28.842276
20 Estonian @ 30.650837

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Basque_Spanish +50% Burusho @ 14.966133


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Estonian +25% Punjabi +25% Ethiopian @ 10.868700


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Estonian + Estonian + Punjabi + Ethiopian @ 10.868700
2 Lithuanian + Estonian + Punjabi + Ethiopian @ 11.012615
3 Estonian + Estonian + UP_Brahmin + Ethiopian @ 11.044293
4 Estonian + Finnish + Punjabi + Ethiopian @ 11.112807
5 Estonian + Finnish + UP_Brahmin + Ethiopian @ 11.131617
6 Estonian + Finnish + Moroccan + Punjabi @ 11.197826
7 Estonian + Russian + Moroccan + Punjabi @ 11.203735
8 Lithuanian + Finnish + Punjabi + Ethiopian @ 11.204286
9 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Punjabi + Ethiopian @ 11.219480
10 Estonian + Estonian + Moroccan + Punjabi @ 11.227054
11 Lithuanian + Estonian + UP_Brahmin + Ethiopian @ 11.267533
12 Lithuanian + Finnish + Moroccan + Punjabi @ 11.304605
13 Lithuanian + Finnish + UP_Brahmin + Ethiopian @ 11.304675
14 Estonian + Finnish + Tunisian + Punjabi @ 11.312314
15 Estonian + Estonian + Tunisian + Punjabi @ 11.349440
16 Lithuanian + Russian + Moroccan + Punjabi @ 11.360800
17 Estonian + Russian + Algerian + Punjabi @ 11.379599
18 Lithuanian + Estonian + Moroccan + Punjabi @ 11.382311
19 Estonian + Estonian + Algerian + Punjabi @ 11.404639
20 Lithuanian + Russian + Algerian + Punjabi @ 11.408848

Kostenski and I share some very distant IBS(Identical by state DNA) It is clear he is from a population that contributed DNA to the current European population.

Chr Start Location End Location Centimorgans (cM) SNPs
1 29,945,028 30,561,476 1.3 240
1 34,919,567 36,529,078 1.5 232
1 52,089,373 53,359,767 1.1 212
1 217,289,571 218,874,378 1.1 282
2 72,388,986 74,190,547 2.2 205
2 192,738,769 195,593,351 1.6 237
2 195,662,979 196,981,622 1.1 244
2 218,594,044 219,778,545 2.1 256
3 39,515,890 40,876,656 1.2 246
3 128,403,138 129,253,691 1.0 201
8 43,776,595 52,422,317 2.0 512
9 33,410,062 35,001,305 1.2 255
13 72,695,420 73,445,368 1.2 203
17 70,318,616 71,547,138 1.5 272
19 6,733,574 7,569,768 2.8 215
20 40,500,918 41,524,771 1.6 283
Largest segment = 2.8 cM
Total of segments > 1 cM = 24.5 cM

3. Find a post where I claimed Berbers were "black" but not negroid. The Berber paternal genetic marker has origins in North Africa. I do not see how E-M125 being the parent clade of E-M81 proves the Moors were black(negroid).

[calipoppy]

Lets look at the medieval and Renaissance artistic depiction of the Moors ....










Veronese - Portrait of a Moorish Woman

[AFP]

Originally Posted by mansamusa

Well it could represent migration from the Middle East. But where is the evidence that these people were responsible for teh culture and language and ethnicity of the historical Berbers in the Ancient and Medieval era?

In terms of what Europeans looked like 20 000 years ago, Cro-Magnon man and Grimaldi Man would be rrepresentative. They both show affinities with Sub-Saharan populations.
Facial reconstruction of Cro-Magnon: KUNSTKAMERA Gerasimov

This as well: European genetic identity may stretch back 36,000 years | Science | AAAS

Scientists reveal face of the first European - Telegraph

Would you please link this data with your theory that Berbers were black but non-negroid. How does this prove your case, exactly? If E-M125 is the parent clade , the sub-haplogroups which derived from it such as E-M81 arose among populations, while residing in North East Africa who later migrated into North West Africa or the Maghreb or alternatively these sub-haplogroups arose after the migration from the horn of Africa into the Maghreb. How does this help your case? The highest frequencies of E-M81 is found among Tuareg, black Berbers:

Hint the "black" pigmentation found in the Tuareg isn't from E-M81.

[epsijaffer]

The Moors, who ruled Spain for 800 years, introduced new scientific techniques to Europe, such as an astrolabe, a device for measuring the position of the stars and planets. Scientific progress in Astronomy, Chemistry, Physics, Mathematics, Geography and Philosophy flourished in Moorish Spain

plz visit: Moderator cut: link removed