were the Moors black? (Japan, descendants, China, Korea)
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I think Moors would most likely refer to the people of mixed Arabic/African descent and Arabs who came to settle in the Iberian peninsula, Sicily and Malta could have brought slaves with them. When Arabs first conquered and spread throughout North Africa, many of the Africans were enslaved and became Muslim. Before the Europeans did so, the Arab African slave trade was the dominant form between about the 7th century to around the 1400's. And with so many Africans converting to Islam for hundreds of years under this system it is also highly likely that 'Moor's" referred to those Africans, now Muslim and of mixed African and Arab ancestry, who had settled in the region. In Shakespeare's play, Othello (the Moor) is traditionally played by a black man, so this supports that view in a way.
I think Moors would most likely refer to the people of mixed Arabic/African descent and Arabs who came to settle in the Iberian peninsula, Sicily and Malta could have brought slaves with them. When Arabs first conquered and spread throughout North Africa, many of the Africans were enslaved and became Muslim. Before the Europeans did so, the Arab African slave trade was the dominant form between about the 7th century to around the 1400's. And with so many Africans converting to Islam for hundreds of years under this system it is also highly likely that 'Moor's" referred to those Africans, now Muslim and of mixed African and Arab ancestry, who had settled in the region. In Shakespeare's play, Othello (the Moor) is traditionally played by a black man, so this supports that view in a way.
The word Moor was of Greek Origin used by the Greeks to describe the indigenous inhabitants of North Africa. The first Western dictionary or at least one of the first was written by a Roman author called Seville of Spain and he was quite clear in letting us know that Moor was synonymous with black:
Quote:
Indeed, by the time Isidore of Seville came to write his Etymologies, the word Maurus or ‘Moor’ had become an adjective in Latin, ‘for the Greeks call black, mauron’. In Isidore’s day, Moors were black by definition…” (Staying Roman: Conquest and identity in Africa and the Mediterranean, 439-700. Jonathan Conant, 2012 Cambridge University Press.)
Moor as used by Medieval Europeans was an inheritance from their Greek and Roman counterparts. Arabs and Muslims never used that word to describe themselves. It was simply the word used by Europeans to describe black Africans from Ancient Greece to Medieval or even Pre-modern Western Europeans. The word Moor was used to describe Muslims after the invasion of Spain by the Moors. The conquest of Spain was carried out largely by Moors. If light skin Arabs or even converted Spanish natives were referred to as Moors it was simply because they lived in a country conquered by Moors. No where before the conquest of Spain had the word moor ever been used to describe anybody else but black Africans.
We get the first physical description of ancient north africans from Herodotus in this book "the histories", this is around 500 B.C.. In it he says "Libya" which is what the Greeks called North Africa, consisted of "ethiopians" which means burnt face or burnt of skin. That was the word for a black man in his time. He did name one other group, that he did NOT call by the name "ethiopian", though he never says what their skin color was. He did say this non ethiopian group were not native to the area and had gone there from somewhere else (migrated from outside of Africa, INTO africa). We also have the same sorts of descriptions from Pliny the Elder and Strabo. You don't see anyone talking about any white skinned people in North Africa in any serious numbers until MUCH later on, roughly around 1600 or so. Thats because Black Moors brought in Millions of white slaves into North Africa and as a result the look of the people changed. This isn't to say there aren't blacks in North Africa, there are. 50% of North africa is still black to this day.
Someone mentioned Shomarka Keita and his talk about what people looked like in ancient times. He is a geneticist, he isn't a time traveller. He has no idea what people would have looked like 1,000 yrs ago, he wasn't there. He can only tell you what genetics are present. He clearly says even in white looking berbers, the over whelming majority of the DNA for Y is sub saharan africans. He says on the X you have a larger amount of european DNA than you do on the Y, however the majority of DNA on both X and Y is sub saharan african. Why? Because again, AFricans brought in Slaves, millions of them. Lots of them were women and used for concubines. Moors were in Europe from 700 AD till about 1400 AD. Thats 700 years of bringing in white men, women and children. That is going to be enough DNA to change the look and feel of any place.
Now you get some silly Geneticist making claims about DNA being present back to the Holocene, blah blah blah. I call bull crap on those claims. DNA doesn't tell you when it was introduce and how long ago, just that it is present. There was a great article written a year or two ago by a geneticist that was scolding other geneticist for making claims about how long DNA has been present in a population. His point was to show that there is no way to say that for certain and it really shows a lack of professionalism to make such claims.
Good video of Shomarka, and he mentions berbers in it
This is 1 hr and 42 minutes long. Watch when you have time.
Anyone denying that there moors were black africans are nothing more than people drinking the Eurocentric kool aid.
Oh and just to cut the argument off at the pass. I know some may say "but what about the Phoenicians in Carthage". Hate to break this news to you, but you need to read what Herodotus said about who and what the Phoenicians were, give you a hint it, rhymes with "fallopian" lol. That book the Histories should be a must read for any one who claims to have any real love for history. He was there, he saw these people with his own eyes. Strabo is another one to read. People should also read a book called "Black Athena" by Bernal. While some of what he says is Eurocentric in my view and untenable given history, he does address a lot of things which would put some of these terrible assumptions people have come to believe in, to rest.
You can get all the volumes via google books for free.
Properly argued. But some just don't know when they lose an argument. Pages after you post this, you will find people posting pictures of modern day blue-eyed Berbers to prove the existence of an ancient White North Africa.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Style
it should also be mentioned you get TWO waves of Moors. The first was a mix of berbers (BLACK amazighs from north africa) and Arabs. They then take and carve up Spain. Then that alliance starts to show stress and cracks and then one of the largest empires the world has seen constitues the second wave. This was the Almohavid from northern Senegal/Southern Mauritania. These were purely 100% black Africans and they take over large portions of west africa, north africa, spain and I would even say sicily (or parts of it).
To further refute the ridiculous idea that North Africans were anything else other than black originally, there are thousands and thousands of rock art paintings through out the caves in the Sahara desert and funny enough you would be hard pressed to find one that isn't of some black skinned person. Do these white north africans just magically appear in 1600? There is a reason they are there and its slavery of europeans.
If I remember right, I think one of the Kings in Chad or Cameroon employed 300 european slaves in his army. I believe the Malian Emperor did the same, but don't remember the number of european slaves he used.
Ancient Rock Art in North Africa, showing you what the people looked like link <--- see video
^^ notice too that they had chariots. Sorta flies in the face of the origin of the wheel as taught by Eurocentric academics.
Again, whenever we talk about North Africa prior to 700 A.D. you are going to be face with a overwhelming majority of black people, not the "melting pot" we see today.
Also there was the conquest of Songhay by the Morrocans carried out by white Christian Spanish Mamluks, if I am not mistaken.
It's a little bit like saying, 'is North Africa black'.
North Africa has contained 'Blacks' forever. The Moors were African. I don't think there is a single African country that doesn't contain indigenous 'blacks'. In the past, the current ratio of 'mixed blacks' to 'pure blacks' was obviously higher.
If anyone is confused 'arabs' are mixed blacks and have always been so. Within an American context, they would all be classified as 'black'. Making new definitions to fit an agenda is painfully pathetic and really should be avoided.
The word Moor was of Greek Origin used by the Greeks to describe the indigenous inhabitants of North Africa. The first Western dictionary or at least one of the first was written by a Roman author called Seville of Spain and he was quite clear in letting us know that Moor was synonymous with black:
Moor as used by Medieval Europeans was an inheritance from their Greek and Roman counterparts. Arabs and Muslims never used that word to describe themselves. It was simply the word used by Europeans to describe black Africans from Ancient Greece to Medieval or even Pre-modern Western Europeans. The word Moor was used to describe Muslims after the invasion of Spain by the Moors. The conquest of Spain was carried out largely by Moors. If light skin Arabs or even converted Spanish natives were referred to as Moors it was simply because they lived in a country conquered by Moors. No where before the conquest of Spain had the word moor ever been used to describe anybody else but black Africans.
Except that no word "mauros" (Μαύρος) exists in Ancient Greek: there is μαυρουσιος which means an inhabitant of Mauretania (which is μαυρουσια).
There is μαυροω which means to hide, to weaken but nothing else.
Alas, the region Mauretania does NOT correspond to the actual Mauritania (where Black and Arabs are more or less the same) but to Morocco and part of Western Algeria which was NEVER inhabited by Blacks.
The Greek word for Black is "melas" from which it derives "melanin".
"Moor" means usually an Islamic Berber from Morocco and/or Algeria.
There might have been Blacks (whom Arabs didn't treat very well by the way) among Moors but they weren't certainly the majority.
Berbers are the indigenous people of North Africa and they are absolutely not Black (on the contrary, they might even pass for Europeans).
The Latin "Mauri" indicated inhabitants of Roman region of "Mauretania" corresponding to actual Morocco, there's no "moor" equivalent in Ancient Greek.
Why are white people always so invested in topics regarding African history? Jesus christ. Whether it be Ancient Egypt or the Moors. Whether you believe they were Black/African or Arab/Middle Eastern, neither groups were white. Let me repeat, White people are not native to Egypt. White people were not Moorish. So why do Caucasian Americans feel the need to scream from the mountaintops about either? Your opinion does not matter. African Americans aren't in threads about Britain or Germany or France trying to force their opinion about your continent's history down your throats. Because it's not our place. Yet here you are.
And posting pictures of modern day Berbers is a logic fail.
You're a white guy on a laptop in North America in 2015.
500 years ago white people weren't even on this continent, outside of a handful of Vikings. A whole different race lived here. Populations can get massacred, displaced, bred out etc. Moors invaded Spain in 711. You don't have a clue how much North Africa changed in 1300 years. It only took a few centures for Whites to kill 20-100 million Natives.
Why are white people always so invested in topics regarding African history? Jesus christ. Whether it be Ancient Egypt or the Moors. Whether you believe they were Black/African or Arab/Middle Eastern, neither groups were white. Let me repeat, White people are not native to Egypt. White people were not Moorish. So why do Caucasian Americans feel the need to scream from the mountaintops about either? Your opinion does not matter. African Americans aren't in threads about Britain or Germany or France trying to force their opinion about your continent's history down your throats. Because it's not our place. Yet here you are.
History has no colour and it doesn't belong to anyone, plus this is public forum so who writes here is none of your concern.
Secondly, nobody is forcing anything down anybody's throats, there are simple stated facts, nothing else.
Thirdly, 90% of threads here are about world wars, Hitler/Stalin and American history, African history isn't certainly prominent here.
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