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How many people know that among the early leaders within the Christian faith were people who were obviously what we would today call black. Even certain Afrocentrists damn Christianity as the "white man's religion" because they are ignorant of that fact.
This is not what is normally told in the histories which are available to most people. You think that were this known the Afrikaners and those who endorsed Jim Crow would have justified their belief systems based on some notion of black inferiority? Indeed how could they when these "black" people encountered Christianity before those of Anglo Saxon origin? That is if this fact were known beyond certain intellectual circles.
Given that ancient peoples seemed less obsessed with race than we are today, I don't know whether any one can truly determine whether Hannibal would or wouldn't have been considered "black" if he took a stroll down some American street in 2015. I find these arguments senseless.
Hannibal was a pure blooded Phoenician, and anyone who had read Livy knows this to be true. There is no truth what-so-ever to the idea that he was black.
Last edited by cachibatches; 12-31-2014 at 07:32 PM..
Hannibal was a pure blooded Phoenician, and anyone who had read Livy knows this to be true.
Like I said I am not going to get into a debate about who was or wasn't "black", especially given that different people define differently what that is.
Are "pure blooded" Americans white? So how do you know what a "pure blooded" Phoenician was? You don't as in that era nationality, culture, and membership within certain political groups were seen as more relevant as mere physical features. A "black" Roman would have wanted to know why he should be classed with a Sudanese.
Like I said I am not going to get into a debate about who was or wasn't "black", especially given that different people define differently what that is.
Are "pure blooded" Americans white? So how do you know what a "pure blooded" Phoenician was? You don't as in that era nationality, culture, and membership within certain political groups were seen as more relevant as mere physical features. A "black" Roman would have wanted to know why he should be classed with a Sudanese.
This is absolute nonsense. He was Phoenician, and the ancients explicitly said so. He had no African admixture. There is nothing else to be said about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny
Tell me something. Which version of history is taught in high schools, and colleges? The one where the primary links that Egyptians had were with peoples outside of Africa, with limited mention of those within Africa, or the version that the Afrocentrists write? How many non scholars know who the Nubians were, or the fact that they fit any definition of being "black" that some one can concoct?
Ask your average American what they think that the ancient Egyptians looked like and they will mention Elizabeth Taylor, not even Halle Berry, although it is likely that she more closely resembles them. They certainly don't think that Cicely Tyson represents what an ancient Egyptian looked like.
I understand that you have a personal beef with Afrocentrists, but they aren't a very influential group.
The correct version of history is being taught in high school. The Egyptians are largely the same people that they have always been. Halle Berry would not be a good representation of the average Egyptian in ancient times any more than modern.
I don't know anyone who thinks that Elizabeth Taylor looks like an Egyptian. She could, or coruse, pass for a Greek, which is what Cleopatra was.
This is absolute nonsense. He was Phoenician, and the ancients explicitly said so. He had no African admixture. There is nothing else to be said about it.
The correct version of history is being taught in high school. The Egyptians are largely the same people that they have always been. Halle Berry would not be a good representation of the average Egyptian in ancient times any more than modern.
I don't know anyone who thinks that Elizabeth Taylor looks like an Egyptian. She could, or coruse, pass for a Greek, which is what Cleopatra was.
The version of history taught in high school is so simplistic and dumbed down, that only someone that knows nothing about history would even think that high school history teaches anything. High school history teaches that Egypt is in the middle east. There is no such place as the middle east. Egypt is in Africa, but you would be hard pressed to get that answer from a typical high school student who took high school history.
Secondly Egyptians were black. Read up on the Greek historian Herdotus before you keep commenting. Your statements about the Egyptians were mind blowingly wrong. The Egyptians of ancient times that the Greeks wrote about were undoubtedly black. Oddly enough the Egyptians name for their land was Kemet, which means "blacks land." The other people who ruled Egypt were invaders, notably the Greeks, Romans, Arabs and later the French and English.
Some of the dumb in this thread was just epic. The Moors were primarily what would considered black people, but don't take anyones in this threads word for it; just visit museums and see the paintings of those folks for yourself.
I just got done watching a special about the dark ages and in the reenactments they show the moors that invaded Spain and Italy as looking Mediterranean or Arab. I've always been under the belief that the moors started out more black than Arab looking from the paintings and other art work I've seen.
Most historians don't think the Moors were black Africans, but some religious groups including the Moorish Science Temple disagree and assert otherwise.
I am of Portuguese ancestry and have an interest in this topic since the Moors where in parts of the Iberian Peninsula for 700 years.
To answer the Op's question directly, no the Moors were not black although they had black slaves some of which fought as soldiers. The Iberian Peninsula ie Spain, Portugal have been studied extensively via DNA studies, if the Moors were black you would find a significant representation of Sub-Saharan paternal lineages in continental Spain and Portugal, that is not the case only one example of a Sub-Saharan African paternal lineage has even been found to date in Portugal. Case closed the Moors were not black.
The version of history taught in high school is so simplistic and dumbed down, that only someone that knows nothing about history would even think that high school history teaches anything. High school history teaches that Egypt is in the middle east. There is no such place as the middle east. Egypt is in Africa, but you would be hard pressed to get that answer from a typical high school student who took high school history.
You haven't even made a point here to refute. My high school history book, which is going back quite a long ways, taught that Egypt is in Africa, and let us be blunt, they all do. In any event, it has nothing to do with the fact that the people of North Africa, Moors and Egyptians, are basically the same people that they have been since pre-history. That is because Eurasians started back-migrating into Africa in the paleolithic. This is not in debate by scholars, and I can post literally dozens of studies that show as much.
Look though the some of the studies of in post 2 of this thread. There are an enormous amount of other corroborating sources out there as well:
Read up on the Greek historian Herdotus before you keep commenting.
Sir, I have read Herodotus cover to cover, as well as Thucydides, Xenophon, Livy, Tacitus, Sutonius, Jospephus, Arrian, Ceasar, cicero, Plato, Plutarch, etc.
Lets us be blunt about this: you have not. Because you believe that Herodotus said they were "black," it is appetent that you have only read a couple of lines from an Afrocentric source on the matter.
In a single line, Herodotus said that they were "melanchroes." This was a word that was used by the Greeks to describe swarthy members of their own race. For example, in the Odyssey, Odysseus is described as "melanchroes."
The word to describe them as black Africans would have been Ethiope. HERODUTUS NEVER SAID IT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by citizen-2
Your statements about the Egyptians were mind blowingly wrong.
My statements about Egypt are 100% correct. Please check out post 2 of the thread posted above.
North Africans, Moors and Egyptians, look like Middle Easterners because:
A) North Africa is on a similar latitude to the Middle East and they evolved in Situ to look that way
B) Eurasians have been back migrating for 50,000 or so years.
There simply never was a different time when they were a black race that magically disappeared. I can't resist Afrocentric icon Keita admitting as much:
The Egyptians of ancient times that the Greeks wrote about were undoubtedly black.
No they were not, and no the Greeks and Romans did not write it. They had literally something like a dozen words for black that meant different things. These translation errors are cruelly repeated by Afrocentrists to paint a false picture. That is all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by citizen-2
Oddly enough the Egyptians name for their land was Kemet, which means "blacks land."
No, no, no, no. They referred to their country as "the Two Lands," after the unification. Kemet referred to the fertile lands with black soil. Several other words denoted other terrains, for example, Deshert referred to "the red lands." This is the word that Desert comes from.
Quote:
Originally Posted by citizen-2
The other people who ruled Egypt were invaders, notably the Greeks, Romans, Arabs and later the French and English.
That does not make the original Egyptians black.
Quote:
Originally Posted by citizen-2
Some of the dumb in this thread was just epic.
As we have demonstrated, you have no idea what you are talking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by citizen-2
The Moors were primarily what would considered black people, but don't take anyones in this threads word for it;
Genetic maps show that, like the Egyptians, they are the same people now as always they were.
Quote:
Originally Posted by citizen-2
just visit museums and see the paintings of those folks for yourself.
Representatives show the Moors as being black, brown, and white. No need to visit a museum, just google.
How many people know that among the early leaders within the Christian faith were people who were obviously what we would today call black. Even certain Afrocentrists damn Christianity as the "white man's religion" because they are ignorant of that fact.
show your sources please?
Im sure most of the earliest Christians and their leaders were what we call today "Middle Eastern" or even Arabs, in basic appearance
sure some were probably sub-Saharan African. They had slaves from all over and other elements too but you act as if early Christians were, sub-Saharan African?
that's makes no historical o logical sense, considering they came from the Middle East and even today the oldest known Christian sects actually going back almost shortly after the supposed time of Jesus's death are Middle Eastern churches and others related to it, like the Armenian Church, certain Christian groups in Lebanon , Egyptian Copts etc..
I have no doubt there could have been certain individuals of more sub-Saharan appearance who were in that part of the world at the time and they could have by one means or another, become Christianized or adopted it like others but you act as if some of the early leaders of Christianity were black , you said they were OBVIOUSLY black?
name you sources or reasoning for this. The only OBVIOUS thing is that Christianity and the earliest Christians cm from the Middle East and the Levant.
eve if you just men Ethiopia, they have a longer christian tradition but it was brought there by people to the north of them, in the Middle East
your stance and your comment that earl Christians were "obviously black" makes no logical sense what so ever, just merley from a purely geographic perspective alone.
and IM pretty sure most Afro-centrist don't dam Christianity truly because it's the white mans religion to them
I think it has more to do with sentiments about racial history in America
if it had been Arab Muslims who founded America and created the same racial legacy here, Afro-centrists would "damn Islam as the white man, Arab racist religion." too
even in slavery times, in the earliest times, there are some scant/individual sources showing Christians slaves especially with portugese names being sold to British/American slavers but mostly were native African religions like Ostora and Vodoun (Voodoo)
but the only true sub-Saharan African religion or native/pagan west African religions which is what most of them practiced when first brought over here as slaves.
and maybe a few were Muslim too if they came from one of the Sahelian states in NW Africa.
I wish everyone would just read and see this link (and the depictions) in it and just Moderator cut: bleep about this crap for once.
it also very very briefly mentions how the people of Carthage looked in ancient/Roman times too
I saw someone on here talking about Hannibal etc.....
most sources show the vast majority looked North African like Berbers which makes PERFECT and logical sense.
makes no sense that save for a few small handful if individuals any Moors would ever have had a sub-Saharan African appearance, especially in the time period we are talking about.
if they did, its only because they were slaves taken from Berber and North African traders going across the Sahara to capture some west Africans or Sahelian peoples and taking them back North to be sold or to be used as servants, who eventually adopted and adapted the customs, culture and religion (Islam) of their captors.
which is true for populations in North Africa today who have a more sub-Saharan physical look, from Sudan, to Morocco to Libya.
the only true exception might be Ethiopian/Somalian Muslims who actually have always had historical and cultural and linguistic links to Saudi Arabia and the Middle East and North Africa but Islam may have come to those areas by way of the Arab or Muslim slave trade too.
Last edited by mensaguy; 02-22-2015 at 05:49 PM..
Reason: Profanity
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