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When did Downtown Dallas decide to redefine it's boundaries? This is not a gotcha question because I seriously want to know.
Even if I were to say the TMC is larger than Dallas inside the loop (the CBD) this still speaks volumes. It's not my problem Dallas decided to include Uptown in its downtown boundaries. What if Houston did the same?
The old boundaries of Downtown Dallas were 1.4 sq miles. When I said the TMC is larger than Downtown Dallas this is what I meant.
Downtown Dallas can't redefine its boundaries because it's a concept, not an organization. But to answer your question seriously, the old freeway loop from the 1960s has been overlapped by growth, to the north (LoMac), to the northeast (Ross Avenue), to the Southwest (Southside), to the east (Deep Ellum), and the Northwest (Victory). These areas are part of a CBD because they depend on commuters in and out, rather than residents. Commuting is not just by day for work, but by night for entertainment. Much of the Uptown area north of Woodall Rigers and as far as West Village is also a commuter entertainment zone, with a strong residential component.
Does it really matter whether or not Houston redefines its downtown boundaries? Or if Dallas does? The physical spaces on the ground are what they are. The real issue is what is there in that general area of Houston that someone would travel to from the suburbs, or what is available in that area of Dallas.
The people in Dallas had to redefine their concept of the downtown boundaries mostly for transportation planning purposes, and to make sure the growth in the area is coherent and functional. Also, they want to present a better set of options to visitors in downtown hotels... tell them what's available within the area they're in. The overlapping areas all have things to do for visitors, and they are close enough to access. None of them are worried about winning arguments with Houston.
Now if Houston put something like the West Village in Midtown, on Main just on the other side of the freeway, I'd be thrilled... just one more thing to enjoy when I'm there.
The value of a downtown is not how much it sprawls, but how compact it is in view of what it has to offer. When Indianapolis put on its SuperBowl, everyone liked the fact that everything was in walking distance. The areas in LoMac or Victory or Deep Ellum or Southside are within walking distance of hotels, and it's important that out of towners have some information about them.
Anyone who has the time to read through your post will find this to be inaccurate.
Also, how is the ridership going to tick up in the areas that have been failing the past 10-30 YEARS? Metro is expanding and the commercial and residential development is already increasing before the tracks are even finished. Look at Harrisburg in East Houston.
What I was saying is that Houston is growing right along with the Houston Metro. Dallas is not growing with its Metro.
2000-2010 population increase.
Houston - 7.5%
Metro - 26.1%
Dallas - 0.8% (LMAO)
Metro - 24%
Where are people moving to when they move to the DFW area? Not the City of Dallas!! Even the Dart representative said that ALOT of the people are moving beyond Dart coverage.
MobileDave, I could not give a rat's rear about the Houston government, the Dallas government, or their administrative boundaries. The real city is the metro area, and that is what I believe should be the focus.
Yes, there is much migration to within a 2-3 mile radius of central Dallas, for younger people who want to live in a party time urban environment. There have also been massive demolitions of old apartment properties which reduces the population. for a better picture of population trends, you have to examine trends within demographic groups.
Basically, as center city areas get more popular, the population drops. This paradox happens because ghetto areas with lots of children are razed, or are gentrified and repopulated by singles in $1200 apartments. It is happening in Chicago, in Boston, in NYC, and other cities. So, as central Dallas gets more popular, and extends itself outward, its population drops, as families are forced out in favor of singles and DINKS (double-income, no kids).
You cannot compare Houston city to Dallas city because they contain different things. Houston city has within its boundaries the original center city plus the inner ring suburbs, whereas in DFW, the inner ring suburbs are outside of the Dallas boundaries. So comparing them is apples and oranges.
One consequence of this is that inner ring suburbs have political power in DFW, and can assert their interests without consulting Dallas, whereas in metro Houston, the inner ring suburbs are dominated by central Houston.
This is why, by the way, that Houston can get away with planning its rail system mostly in the loop. In Dallas, the independent inner rings can demand rail connections, as Irving did a couple of years ago.
So the traditional downtown and the CBD is still inside the loop. It's funny how Wikipedia describe "an explosion of growth" for the reason Downtown Dallas Inc. decided to "expand the term of Downtown" to include more areas. I guess 0.8% is an explosion of growth...
I think it's funny how savanite was arguing with me like it has always been this way. So, yes, my point is still extremely valid. The "traditional" downtown up until last year was trumped by Houston's Texas Medical Center. Just wanted to make sure you heard me correctly. Maybe Houston will "expand the term of downtown" to include Uptown and the TMC.
Actually, no. Virtually no office buildings have been built in the loop in the last 10 years, or at least south of Ross Avenue. There has been massive growth of office building north of the loop.
The purpose of the Woodall Deck Park is to erase the artificial boundary between the older buildings south of Woodall Rogers and the new north of it.
The really massive population growth in the center has happened by the intense residential development of Uptown, all the way north to Knox-Henderson. The area known as Uptown has a population density approaching that of parts of San Francisco.
What is happening to the office buildings in the traditional downtown, say on Elm, Main and Commerce? They have been abandoned as offices, and are in the process of conversion to residential space. Main street in Dallas is almost entirely high rise residential.
You could say that the locus of new, desirable office space is on McKinney ave. This area is also known as LoMac. It is immediately north of Woodall Rogers, outside of the loop.
So the traditional downtown and the CBD is still inside the loop. It's funny how Wikipedia describe "an explosion of growth" for the reason Downtown Dallas Inc. decided to "expand the term of Downtown" to include more areas. I guess 0.8% is an explosion of growth...
I think it's funny how savanite was arguing with me like it has always been this way. So, yes, my point is still extremely valid. The "traditional" downtown up until last year was trumped by Houston's Texas Medical Center. Just wanted to make sure you heard me correctly. Maybe Houston will "expand the term of downtown" to include Uptown and the TMC.
You're making some pretty big leaps there. What Dallas is claiming to be now part of downtown are building booms that have spilled over the small freeway loop into immediately adjacent areas. All of these neighborhoods actually butt up against each other. Uptown and TMC are not right next to downtown Houston, so that'd be quite a leap for Houston to consider them downtown unless everything inbetween was completely developed and filled in.
MobileDave, it is in your best interests to have an accurate view of Dallas. Here in Texas we have four major metros reasonably close to one another, all to increase our range of urban options.
Nobody can find everything in just one city alone.
Dallas also has 7 mile stretches of track that carry 40,000 people. If the Houston rail system extended into the suburban density to the extent that DART does, it would have a similar average ridership. Houston chose the Main street corridor, including the stretch between the TMC and downtown, for its high potential ridership in order to justify the system, and make it look as good as possible, but other corridors may or may not sustain that level.
There are many ways to create different averages out of the same body of data. Any of those averages may or may not be relevant to physical reality.
The Dallas and Houston systems are of two different types. The Main street corridor line in Houston is a streetcar line designed to replace city buses. The Dallas system is limited stop rapid transit designed to carry suburbanites quickly into the city. Dallas uses buses to do what Houston does with it's streetcar line, and Houston uses buses to do what Dallas uses Light Rail Rapid Transit to do.
The Houston metro is slower over the same distance than DART. For example, the scheduled time between the West End station and the Lovers Lane station is 16 minutes. The Houston Metro takes 30 minutes between the UH downtown station and the Fannin South station. On the other hand, the Houston system has more stops and provides greater connectivity to the neighborhoods. Is this good or bad? Well, just like anything else in life, that depends.
BAM! Someone finally spelled it out. Thank ya.
Dallas also has more diverse rail options with an expanding and upgrading trolley line, two commuter rail lines (one being heavy rail) and a streetcar system soon to be started and Dallas will have the first rail service to an airport in Texas. Even if the ridership numbers aren't off the charts the rail options in DFW are diverse. I take the train everyday and love it.
Eventually, growth will happen around the DART stations and the ridership will grow. I was watching a documentary about America. One episode was taking about New York's subway system. A rail line was built from Manhattan to Queens but the borough was sparsely populated. There were absolutely no houses, only a rail line. Today, the area is highly populated and dense. The same rail line brought development to that area and the line is still in operation today.
Very true. It was always known that Dart would start out with low ridership. The Dart board will always mention that the rail build-out is actually for a 100 year plan.
Anyone who has the time to read through your post will find this to be inaccurate.
Also, how is the ridership going to tick up in the areas that have been failing the past 10-30 YEARS? Metro is expanding and the commercial and residential development is already increasing before the tracks are even finished. Look at Harrisburg in East Houston.
What I was saying is that Houston is growing right along with the Houston Metro. Dallas is not growing with its Metro.
2000-2010 population increase.
Houston - 7.5%
Metro - 26.1%
Dallas - 0.8% (LMAO)
Metro - 24%
Where are people moving to when they move to the DFW area? Not the City of Dallas!! Even the Dart representative said that ALOT of the people are moving beyond Dart coverage.
Was Houston as aggressive as Dallas in tearing down ran down neighborhoods before the recession took over? There are many neighborhoods that are empty lots in Dallas that were planned to be developed before the banks cut off financing. Once things start rolling again those lots will fill back up. It was proven that Dallas' stagnant growth was due to the demolition of a lot of areas.
Actually, no. Virtually no office buildings have been built in the loop in the last 10 years, or at least south of Ross Avenue. There has been massive growth of office building north of the loop.
The purpose of the Woodall Deck Park is to erase the artificial boundary between the older buildings south of Woodall Rogers and the new north of it.
The really massive population growth in the center has happened by the intense residential development of Uptown, all the way north to Knox-Henderson. The area known as Uptown has a population density approaching that of parts of San Francisco.
What is happening to the office buildings in the traditional downtown, say on Elm, Main and Commerce? They have been abandoned as offices, and are in the process of conversion to residential space. Main street in Dallas is almost entirely high rise residential.
You could say that the locus of new, desirable office space is on McKinney ave. This area is also known as LoMac. It is immediately north of Woodall Rogers, outside of the loop.
The old boundaries of Downtown Dallas were 1.4 sq miles. When I said the TMC is larger than Downtown Dallas this is what I meant.
Well, I guess Rhome, Texas is bigger than downtown Dallas; so is Disney World and the Roter Kamm crater. Wow, gives me shivers. Seems to me that you are making a point that is completely pointless.
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BAM! Someone finally spelled it out. Thank ya.
