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And some of them probably did. But some also may not have unless they were motivated by Christianity.
How do you know what motivates people to do what they do and WHY?
Also, what was a person's motivation for NOT contributing money to the school or volunteering?
If I give money to a homeless man, or hold a door open for someone...or do anything nice for someone, I don't say or even think, "Oh goody! NOW I'll get into heaven!" or that I'm doing this "in the name of Christ." If anything, I'll thank God (silently) for giving me an opportunity to help/be nice to someone.
I'm simply pointing out what they said...or didn't say.
But, often it was an attempt to gain favor so that their child would get in the gifted program.
Hah! As in what Christians are always shouting to non-believers: "If you don't believe in Jesus when you stand before him at the last judgement he will condemn you to hell for not believing in him and accepting him as your Lord and savior." To that I say
Okay - this only goes to show that a little/tiny amount of knowledge on your part is dangerous.
Good governance does not equal modern day justice.
Romans were slave owners - not based on skin color, but on conquest/birth. Their sex laws affirmed their social order. Freeborn men, the highest on the social ladder were legally entitled to rape unmarried women and men of a lower social class. Slaves and prostitutes were treated as subhuman under Roman law and custom, and were the sexual playthings of free Roman men.
In Rome, it was illegal to rape your own child. However, rape of child from a similar or higher social class it would have been viewed as badly. If the father had raped a child from a lower social class or a slave - girl or boy, nobody cared.
So yes, Ancient Roman had good governance for the top freeman and everyone else was used as a sex toy. Not for nothing, you pull things out which you have no knowledge and it damages your arguments.
Are you going to argue with one of the most preeminent historians of the Age????? When you can write an opus of the magnitude of The Decline and fall of the Roman Empire, then come and lecture me. Not before.
I don't agree that it's been like that since its inception. And frankly, I'm not really interested in the 'corporate hierarchy'. Even though I'm Catholic, I'm Catholic for my own personal reasons; not because I enjoy following the Pope.
I'm emotionally tied to Jesus enough so that if I left him behind for no good reason, I'd feel like I was kicking a good friend out of my life...for no good reason.
Maybe you forgot Thrill, but I didn't always have Jesus in my life. Even when I was going to Mass every Sunday in my youth and as a teen, I never really thought much about Jesus. Or God. And when I read posts like Arleigh's, who's had Jesus in his life since he was 7, I'm almost envious. I mean, when I was 7, I had no idea that I could have invited Jesus into my heart at that time! If I had known back then, that I was 'allowed' to do so, I would have done so...and my life probably would have been better for it.
But that's just it. When I finally DID invite Jesus into my life, my life DID get better. No, I'm not rich, or famous, or have more possessions. But I don't need all those things to be happy or content or peaceful. And I discovered this when I was homeless. And yes, I was a Christian before I became homeless. I didn't fault him for "not being there" when I went through that stage of my life. I got through it because he was there.
If that's the way you're reading Christianity...and/or the Bible...then in all honesty, I don't think you're reading it...or interpreting it...the right way.
Christians on this forum have said this over and over again, Thrill. Much of what you read in the Bible has to do with context. I know that a number of atheists roll their eyes whenever we tell them that, but it's so true. If you read some verses/passages in the proper context, suddenly the 'contradictions' disappear.
The proof is in the pudding, Mink. You and I can argue "context" until the cows come home but the real story is the declining numbers of Christians in 1st World countries like the US, Canada, Europe and Australia. Please explain to me why who many millions are ditching Christianity if Jesus is so great, without defaulting to "Yeah, but in Africa and Asia Christianity is growing." That doesn't answer my question.
The proof is in the pudding, Mink. You and I can argue "context" until the cows come home but the real story is the declining numbers of Christians in 1st World countries like the US, Canada, Europe and Australia. Please explain to me why who many millions are ditching Christianity if Jesus is so great, without defaulting to "Yeah, but in Africa and Asia Christianity is growing." That doesn't answer my question.
This has always been my favorite vid for the people who trot out "context"...
If God really cared about that homeless man he'd have arranged for him to find a hundred dollar bill lying on the street.
LOL! You've obviously never been homeless before. A hundred bucks is GREAT for a homeless man.
But it's a small sum for him/her to get a home/job etc.
Sometimes bad stuff happens to us so we can learn. I learned when I was homeless. Tell people who have possessions that possessions don't mean squat in the 'big picture'.
Quote:
I can show you a homeless encampment filled with Christians who are starving and out of work and don't know where their children's next meal is coming from. Why doesn't God help them?
How do you know that God hasn't helped them? If they're in an encampment, chances are, they're NOT "starving."
Do you REALLY believe that EVERY homeless person's situation is the SAME? Like I've said before, you've never been homeless. I have. So I know better than YOU.
Quote:
Why do they have to wait around for someone with a good heart to venture by before they all drop dead of hunger?
Most homeless don't 'drop dead' from hunger. Some of them drop dead because other people don't believe they should live...
I knew of two homeless people when I was living my mom. When my mom was hospitalized, turned out that ONE of those men was beaten to death by 2-by-4...JUST because he was HOMELESS.
You want to know about the homeless, just ASK me, K? Wanna know they feel about God? Jesus? Just ASK me!
Quote:
I recall a Christmas when a woman and her little daughter were outside our local market holding up a placard saying, "Poor. Hungry. Please help us." I stopped and took her into the market and gave her a shopping cart and told her to buy what she needed. She put into the cart a large rump roast, milk, cheese, and several other items that totaled around $100. This was before the inflation surge so money went much further then. She didn't eat because God loves her. She ate because I happened to be driving out of the lot and saw her and wanted to give her a helping hand.
Annnnd, what's your point? See, the difference between Christian and non-Christian is that Christians believe (for the most part) that their actions are directed by God.
By the way... If that's what you did for that woman, I think your actions toward that woman were amazing.
If you don't believe that your action was inspired by God, SHE very well may have. She very well have seen you as a 'gift' from God.
You REALLY gonna tell her otherwise?
Quote:
People don't eat because God loves them. They eat because good people like you, phet, myself, outback and others with good hearts take upon themselves the stuff God should be doing because he's the one responsible for them.
Take it upon themselves? LOL! More like, you're taking it upon GOD, and don't want to admit it!
Quote:
He created them and then like a drunken deadbeat dad he dumped them to Child Welfare Services. God doesn't care about them. He doesn't even know they exist. God doesn't deserve the time of day, much less our thanks under the mistaken belief that it was he who arranged for us to stumble over some down-and-outs that we choose to help out.
God cares more than you think, Trill...
It almost seems like you have the Spirit...but you doubt it...
If you were ever EVER a 'warrior for Christ' the same as you are, a warrior for atheism...
...I would have been on your side in a heartbeat...
Anything can cause harm if misused, and religion is no different.
I do not see religion as some sort of neutral tabula rasa that does not encourage anything harmful or discourage anything helpful. Most religions are based on a set of not only unproven, but unprovABLE assertions. To whatever degree an adherent isn't simply suspending disbelief and playing along with these assertions, but actually accepts them as truth (or even as Truth), I think all sorts of mischief comes of that.
Of course it is entirely possible to be divorced from reality without religion's help, or I would be likely to suppose that eliminating religion would solve that particular problem. It is a somewhat subjective exercise to wonder how much of extreme right-wing US politics for example is dependent on religiously-mediated drivers and how much of it has a life of its own. It may be that religion was the catalyst that jump started that stuff in the US and is no longer a significant input. It is possible it could have happened on its own. I has my suspicions, you might say, but I don't really know for a fact and I am not sure anyone can conclusively demonstrate that.
But let's put it in another realm. Humans have enslaved other humans for as far back as we can see. Assuming for the sake of argument that religion has had no part in that practice, what part has it has in raising up opposition to it? Has it ever been used to excuse it? Sure, you can find some Christians who fought slavery in the 19th century, but you can also find plenty of Christians who invoked the Biblical "curse of Ham" and other doctrines to justify it. The British expunged slavery sooner than we did, and I read once that those activists seeking its elimination from Britain were dismayed to find little in Holy Writ that opposes it; in fact it pretty much assumes it as a "given" and tells you, not to liberate your slaves, but how to be a good slave-owner -- even going so far as to offer rules about beating them to within an inch of their lives. Hence the spectacle of some Christians today trying to claim that slavery in Bible times wasn't the same thing as slavery today. As IF. So those activists were reduced to appealing to Christians, not on the basis of being true to scripture, but on more indirect moral grounds.
So even where one can plausibly argue that theism did not START a problem or even overtly PROMOTE it, neither did it see it as a great moral wrong. The immorality of slavery was in large measure a modern secular innovation, not a purely religious one. And that's being charitable. If religion weren't always "leading from behind" like this, I'd be more impressed with its salubrious influence on society. As it is -- not so much.
LOL! You've obviously never been homeless before. A hundred bucks is GREAT for a homeless man.
But it's a small sum for him/her to get a home/job etc.
Sometimes bad stuff happens to us so we can learn. I learned when I was homeless. Tell people who have possessions that possessions don't mean squat in the 'big picture'.
How do you know that God hasn't helped them? If they're in an encampment, chances are, they're NOT "starving."
Do you REALLY believe that EVERY homeless person's situation is the SAME? Like I've said before, you've never been homeless. I have. So I know better than YOU.
Most homeless don't 'drop dead' from hunger. Some of them drop dead because other people don't believe they should live...
I knew of two homeless people when I was living my mom. When my mom was hospitalized, turned out that ONE of those men was beaten to death by 2-by-4...JUST because he was HOMELESS.
You want to know about the homeless, just ASK me, K? Wanna know they feel about God? Jesus? Just ASK me!
Annnnd, what's your point? See, the difference between Christian and non-Christian is that Christians believe (for the most part) that their actions are directed by God.
By the way... If that's what you did for that woman, I think your actions toward that woman were amazing.
If you don't believe that your action was inspired by God, SHE very well may have. She very well have seen you as a 'gift' from God.
You REALLY gonna tell her otherwise?
Take it upon themselves? LOL! More like, you're taking it upon GOD, and don't want to admit it!
God cares more than you think, Trill...
It almost seems like you have the Spirit...but you doubt it...
If you were ever EVER a 'warrior for Christ' the same as you are, a warrior for atheism...
...I would have been on your side in a heartbeat...
Auggh! Where can I start with all this????
Let me just say that this is subjective stuff. You believe God was responsible for you pulling a couple of bucks out of your pocket and helping the homeless man. I believe God had nothing to do with it when I helped out that woman with her child. You believe it was God who pulled you off the streets when I believe it was you pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and getting out of there. Millions of homeless Christians out there testify that you are wrong. God isn't helping them and they won't get any help until another human being passes by and decides out of the goodness of his heart, not God's, to help him out. Simple as that.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 01-09-2023 at 04:29 PM..
Are you going to argue with one of the most preeminent historians of the Age????? When you can write an opus of the magnitude of The Decline and fall of the Roman Empire, then come and lecture me. Not before.
You need to read the sources in full before you quote. One sentences out of context don't cut it.
Perfectly fine if you get comfort from the words. It's not where they came from that matter, just that they exist and that they do good for society. My problem with all this is the Christians' attitudes toward all this, as might be exemplified in the imaginary conversation below:
C: You like the beatitudes?
A: Yes I do. They comfort me.
C: Jesus said them.
A: So?
C: It proves Jesus was the son of God.
A: Oh really? How do you figure that?
C: Only the son of God could come up with teachings so profound. It proves that what Jesus said was true. You must believe he is your savior or you will die in your sins and go to hell.
You see how everything--I mean EVERYTHING goes back to having to believe in Jesus or you're going to go to hell. Christians simply cannot jettison this archaic sentiment that the whole world revolves around Jesus. It's a large part of why people are jettisoning Jesus and leaving Christianity--because they are sick and tired of such archaic Stone-Age thinking dominating civilized discourse between people. It's like a rational person trying to make conversation with a chimp. It can't be done.
I for one put little weight on what most Christians have to say regarding their unique individual interpretations and beliefs.
Most people seem to be fairly entrenched in their beliefs and worldviews. Few continue to remain open to new ideas and information. Perhaps it's fear, intellectual limitations, laziness, or even bigotry. The religious, being just one of many groups that appear to claim a monopoly on truth.
Nevertheless, I still identify as a Christian.
So far, I've been unable to improve on those words written in red.
I have a very good friend who claims to be atheist. We continue to have meaniful discussions surrounding a multitude of topics.
We just use a jargon we can both understand.
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If anything, I'll thank God (silently) for giving me an opportunity to help/be nice to someone.
Like I've said before, you've never been homeless. I have. So I know better than YOU. 
