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Christianity has done more for humanity than just its involvement in the arts.
The Red Cross has Christian roots. Christianity has been a leader in the areas of education, hospitals, orphanages, and our legal system. Statistically, Christians far outweigh their support of charities and the homeless than any other religious AND non-religious groups.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Wow. So all those Christians who were involved with helping people with regard to education, legal issues, setting up and running hospitals, taking in unwanted babies, feeding the homeless and helping the poor were doing so because they were "deceived, misled and manipulated" into doing so?
Unfortunately, you have a very narrow view of Christianity.
Interesting. I read Arleigh's post and then yours. And if I was on the fence about Christianity, I'd be more in favor of it than against it.
What initially caused me to become a 'lapsed Christian', wasn't because of Christianity or Catholicism. It was because of the hypocritical so-called Christians who were in my sphere of influence. I figured that if I had to become like them in order to be a Christian, I wanted no part of it.
And then, I grew up. I realized that my experience(s) with a handful of Christians had nothing to do with Christianity.
Christianity has over 2.3 billion members, under thousands of different denominations. Your experience with belonging to a handful of those "toxic" religions doesn't mean that ALL denominations are "toxic." Plus, I'm sure there are others who belong to the same "toxic" denomination you did, and I'm sure not all of them see their beliefs as "toxic."
You can also find stories about atheists or people from other religions and their decision to convert to Christianity...and how their lives are better for it.
Are you forgetting that Christians have been persecuted and murdered since the days of Christ?
Edward Gibbon in his monumental classic The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, viewed the the pre-Christian Roman empire as characterized by “religious harmony”, and the Romans were interested more in good governance than in imposing religious orthodoxy on their many subjects. A distinctive feature of early Christianity, by contrast, was for Gibbon its “exclusive zeal for the truth of religion”, a blinkered, intolerant obsessiveness that succeeded by bullying and intimidation, and promoted a class of wide-eyed mystics. Indeed, Christian zealotry, was, he thought, ultimately responsible for the fall of the Roman empire, by creating citizens contemptuous of their public duty.
Pre-Christianity, Gibbon argues was a good time for the Roman people. Religious tolerance, prosperity, happiness. After Christianity insinuated its malignant tentacles into the empire, pretty much all the good was gone and Christianity eventually brought about the fall of the empire, Gibbon writes. As I said, Christianity by its very nature is a cancer that spreads through civilization and rots it--not through its members like you, because you and the 2.3 billion others who are within it are just innocent dupes. The real villains are the people at the top who run the corporation for their own ends. It's always been that way since its inception.
Mink, how emotionally tied to Jesus are you? Are you so tied to the idea of having Jesus in your life that leaving him behind is unthinkable under any circumstance?
I threw Jesus in the trash can 10 years ago and it was the smartest decision of my life at that time and I haven't regretted it for a second since. I carefully watched for a few years to see if there were any manifestations of Jesus trying to get me back or any threats being made by him if I didn't come back. Nothing happened. I didn't get struck by a bolt out of the blue. I didn't get into some weird unexplainable accident. Everything stayed exactly the same and in many ways my life got extremely better--no religious baggage to have to cart around with me i.e. "Would Jesus want me to do this or would he disapprove?' To hell with all that. If I want to do it and it's not illegal and doesn't hurt anyone, I do it. Jesus and God don't figure into my decision at all. That's real freedom, not the slavery Christianity imposes. I encourage slaves to Christianity to try throwing off the yoke as I did and see if their live don't get exponentially better like mine did.
"10 ways Christianity ruins society"
"There are a few common sense rules in the Bible that are good, but when you take every single rule into account you find vagueness, contradictions, absurdities, immorality idolized and morality demonized. The rules in the Bible are all over the place. To make matters even worse, the determining factor of whether or not you’re forgiven or punished for violating these vague, contradictory, absurd rules is whether or not you believe in a story."
Edward Gibbon in his monumental classic The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, viewed the the pre-Christian Roman empire as characterized by “religious harmony”, and the Romans were interested more in good governance than in imposing religious orthodoxy on their many subjects. A distinctive feature of early Christianity, by contrast, was for Gibbon its “exclusive zeal for the truth of religion”, a blinkered, intolerant obsessiveness that succeeded by bullying and intimidation, and promoted a class of wide-eyed mystics. Indeed, Christian zealotry, was, he thought, ultimately responsible for the fall of the Roman empire, by creating citizens contemptuous of their public duty.
Pre-Christianity, Gibbon argues was a good time for the Roman people. Religious tolerance, prosperity, happiness. After Christianity insinuated its malignant tentacles into the empire, pretty much all the good was gone and Christianity eventually brought about the fall of the empire, Gibbon writes. As I said, Christianity by its very nature is a cancer that spreads through civilization and rots it--not through its members like you, because you and the 2.3 billion others who are within it are just innocent dupes. The real villains are the people at the top who run the corporation for their own ends. It's always been that way since its inception.
Mink, how emotionally tied to Jesus are you? Are you so tied to the idea of having Jesus in your life that leaving him behind is unthinkable under any circumstance?
I threw Jesus in the trash can 10 years ago and it was the smartest decision of my life at that time and I haven't regretted it for a second since. I carefully watched for a few years to see if there were any manifestations of Jesus trying to get me back or any threats being made by him if I didn't come back. Nothing happened. I didn't get struck by a bolt out of the blue. I didn't get into some weird unexplainable accident. Everything stayed exactly the same and in many ways my life got extremely better--no religious baggage to have to cart around with me i.e. "Would Jesus want me to do this or would he disapprove?' To hell with all that. If I want to do it and it's not illegal and doesn't hurt anyone, I do it. Jesus and God don't figure into my decision at all. That's real freedom, not the slavery Christianity imposes. I encourage slaves to Christianity to try throwing off the yoke as I did and see if their live don't get exponentially better like mine did.
"10 ways Christianity ruins society"
"There are a few common sense rules in the Bible that are good, but when you take every single rule into account you find vagueness, contradictions, absurdities, immorality idolized and morality demonized. The rules in the Bible are all over the place. To make matters even worse, the determining factor of whether or not you’re forgiven or punished for violating these vague, contradictory, absurd rules is whether or not you believe in a story."
As you have accurately pointed out, the historical Jesus is still a mystery. One must take His existence on faith.
I've never met the Man physically. Or anyone who has
I'm not much interested in the individual revelations of most. Nor do I still place much emphasis on those numerous organizations and institutions that claim supremecy in their interpretations and methods.
I do want to understand the beatitudes, and the words written in red. Those words are revolutionary. And for me at least, provide great comfort.
Attribute those words in red to whomever you wish. The fact is, those words written in red exist.
If there is a metaphorical throne, or king, or Supreme idea, it is for me the author of those words.
Yes. As I was reading Mink's as-usual all-pro-christianity post, it occurred to me that to give credit to christianity for all those accomplishments is a little short-sighted. Those same people, with or without christianity, may very well have done the same things for 'the good of the people'.
And some of them probably did. But some also may not have unless they were motivated by Christianity.
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As a principal, when some parent would contribute money to the school, or do volunteer work at the school, etc., not one ever said, "I'm doing this for christianity". They did it because they were good citizens.
How do you know what motivates people to do what they do and WHY?
Also, what was a person's motivation for NOT contributing money to the school or volunteering?
If I give money to a homeless man, or hold a door open for someone...or do anything nice for someone, I don't say or even think, "Oh goody! NOW I'll get into heaven!" or that I'm doing this "in the name of Christ." If anything, I'll thank God (silently) for giving me an opportunity to help/be nice to someone.
Edward Gibbon in his monumental classic The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, viewed the the pre-Christian Roman empire as characterized by “religious harmony”, and the Romans were interested more in good governance than in imposing religious orthodoxy on their many subjects. A distinctive feature of early Christianity, by contrast, was for Gibbon its “exclusive zeal for the truth of religion”, a blinkered, intolerant obsessiveness that succeeded by bullying and intimidation, and promoted a class of wide-eyed mystics.Indeed, Christian zealotry, was, he thought, ultimately responsible for the fall of the Roman empire, by creating citizens contemptuous of their public duty.
Okay - this only goes to show that a little/tiny amount of knowledge on your part is dangerous.
Good governance does not equal modern day justice.
Romans were slave owners - not based on skin color, but on conquest/birth. Their sex laws affirmed their social order. Freeborn men, the highest on the social ladder were legally entitled to rape unmarried women and men of a lower social class. Slaves and prostitutes were treated as subhuman under Roman law and custom, and were the sexual playthings of free Roman men.
To quote a Roman:
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“If your loins are swollen, and there’s some homeborn slave boy or girl around where you can quickly stick it, would you rather burst with tension? Not I—I like an easy lay.” Slaves played something like the part that masturbation has played in most cultures: we learn in a book on dream interpretation that if a man dreams “he is stroking his genitals with his hands, he will obtain a slave or slave-woman.”
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Some years before the prefecture of Fuscianus, which can be dated to AD 187–189, a Roman boy of respectable birth had escaped the clutches of the small staff of attendants who actually did much of what we would consider parenting. He was, like so many others, pulled into the slave trade that lurked in even the most civilized corners of the Roman Empire. After some time he reappeared in Rome, in a slave market.
Unwittingly, his own father bought him and “used him in the Greek fashion.” Soon enough the slave was sent to perform chained labor in the fields. There he encountered his old pedagogue and nurse, and a sequence of disastrous recognitions ensued. The slave dealer was interrogated, the truth revealed. The masters were the parents, their slave in fact the son. The parents committed suicide, and the prefect awarded the estate to the poor son, “not so much as an inheritance as a recompense for incestuous violation.”
In Rome, it was illegal to rape your own child. However, rape of child from a similar or higher social class it would have been viewed as badly. If the father had raped a child from a lower social class or a slave - girl or boy, nobody cared.
So yes, Ancient Roman had good governance for the top freeman and everyone else was used as a sex toy. Not for nothing, you pull things out which you have no knowledge and it damages your arguments.
As you have accurately pointed out, the historical Jesus is still a mystery. One must take His existence on faith.
I've never met the Man physically. Or anyone who has
I'm not much interested in the individual revelations of most. Nor do I still place much emphasis on those numerous organizations and institutions that claim supremecy in their interpretations and methods.
I do want to understand the beatitudes, and the words written in red. Those words are revolutionary. And for me at least, provide great comfort.
Attribute those words in red to whomever you wish. The fact is, those words written in red exist.
If there is a metaphorical throne, or king, or Supreme idea, it is for me the author of those words.
Perfectly fine if you get comfort from the words. It's not where they came from that matter, just that they exist and that they do good for society. My problem with all this is the Christians' attitudes toward all this, as might be exemplified in the imaginary conversation below:
C: You like the beatitudes?
A: Yes I do. They comfort me.
C: Jesus said them.
A: So?
C: It proves Jesus was the son of God.
A: Oh really? How do you figure that?
C: Only the son of God could come up with teachings so profound. It proves that what Jesus said was true. You must believe he is your savior or you will die in your sins and go to hell.
You see how everything--I mean EVERYTHING goes back to having to believe in Jesus or you're going to go to hell. Christians simply cannot jettison this archaic sentiment that the whole world revolves around Jesus. It's a large part of why people are jettisoning Jesus and leaving Christianity--because they are sick and tired of such archaic Stone-Age thinking dominating civilized discourse between people. It's like a rational person trying to make conversation with a chimp. It can't be done.
Edward Gibbon in his monumental classic The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, viewed the the pre-Christian Roman empire as characterized by “religious harmony”, and the Romans were interested more in good governance than in imposing religious orthodoxy on their many subjects. A distinctive feature of early Christianity, by contrast, was for Gibbon its “exclusive zeal for the truth of religion”, a blinkered, intolerant obsessiveness that succeeded by bullying and intimidation, and promoted a class of wide-eyed mystics. Indeed, Christian zealotry, was, he thought, ultimately responsible for the fall of the Roman empire, by creating citizens contemptuous of their public duty.
Pre-Christianity, Gibbon argues was a good time for the Roman people. Religious tolerance, prosperity, happiness. After Christianity insinuated its malignant tentacles into the empire, pretty much all the good was gone and Christianity eventually brought about the fall of the empire, Gibbon writes. As I said, Christianity by its very nature is a cancer that spreads through civilization and rots it--not through its members like you, because you and the 2.3 billion others who are within it are just innocent dupes. The real villains are the people at the top who run the corporation for their own ends. It's always been that way since its inception.
I don't agree that it's been like that since its inception. And frankly, I'm not really interested in the 'corporate hierarchy'. Even though I'm Catholic, I'm Catholic for my own personal reasons; not because I enjoy following the Pope.
Quote:
Mink, how emotionally tied to Jesus are you? Are you so tied to the idea of having Jesus in your life that leaving him behind is unthinkable under any circumstance?
I'm emotionally tied to Jesus enough so that if I left him behind for no good reason, I'd feel like I was kicking a good friend out of my life...for no good reason.
Maybe you forgot Thrill, but I didn't always have Jesus in my life. Even when I was going to Mass every Sunday in my youth and as a teen, I never really thought much about Jesus. Or God. And when I read posts like Arleigh's, who's had Jesus in his life since he was 7, I'm almost envious. I mean, when I was 7, I had no idea that I could have invited Jesus into my heart at that time! If I had known back then, that I was 'allowed' to do so, I would have done so...and my life probably would have been better for it.
Quote:
I threw Jesus in the trash can 10 years ago and it was the smartest decision of my life at that time and I haven't regretted it for a second since. I carefully watched for a few years to see if there were any manifestations of Jesus trying to get me back or any threats being made by him if I didn't come back. Nothing happened. I didn't get struck by a bolt out of the blue. I didn't get into some weird unexplainable accident. Everything stayed exactly the same and in many ways my life got extremely better--no religious baggage to have to cart around with me i.e. "Would Jesus want me to do this or would he disapprove?' To hell with all that. If I want to do it and it's not illegal and doesn't hurt anyone, I do it. Jesus and God don't figure into my decision at all. That's real freedom, not the slavery Christianity imposes. I encourage slaves to Christianity to try throwing off the yoke as I did and see if their live don't get exponentially better like mine did.
But that's just it. When I finally DID invite Jesus into my life, my life DID get better. No, I'm not rich, or famous, or have more possessions. But I don't need all those things to be happy or content or peaceful. And I discovered this when I was homeless. And yes, I was a Christian before I became homeless. I didn't fault him for "not being there" when I went through that stage of my life. I got through it because he was there.
Quote:
"10 ways Christianity ruins society"
"There are a few common sense rules in the Bible that are good, but when you take every single rule into account you find vagueness, contradictions, absurdities, immorality idolized and morality demonized. The rules in the Bible are all over the place. To make matters even worse, the determining factor of whether or not you’re forgiven or punished for violating these vague, contradictory, absurd rules is whether or not you believe in a story."
If that's the way you're reading Christianity...and/or the Bible...then in all honesty, I don't think you're reading it...or interpreting it...the right way.
Christians on this forum have said this over and over again, Thrill. Much of what you read in the Bible has to do with context. I know that a number of atheists roll their eyes whenever we tell them that, but it's so true. If you read some verses/passages in the proper context, suddenly the 'contradictions' disappear.
Perfectly fine if you get comfort from the words. It's not where they came from that matter, just that they exist and that they do good for society. My problem with all this is the Christians' attitudes toward all this, as might be exemplified in the imaginary conversation below:
C: You like the beatitudes?
A: Yes I do. They comfort me.
C: Jesus said them.
A: So?
C: It proves Jesus was the son of God.
A: Oh really? How do you figure that?
C: Only the son of God could come up with teachings so profound. It proves that what Jesus said was true. You must believe he is your savior or you will die in your sins and go to hell.
You see how everything--I mean EVERYTHING goes back to having to believe in Jesus or you're going to go to hell. Christians simply cannot jettison this archaic sentiment that the whole world revolves around Jesus. It's a large part of why people are jettisoning Jesus and leaving Christianity--because they are sick and tired of such archaic Stone-Age thinking dominating civilized discourse between people. It's like a rational person trying to make conversation with a chimp. It can't be done.
And some of them probably did. But some also may not have unless they were motivated by Christianity.
How do you know what motivates people to do what they do and WHY?
Also, what was a person's motivation for NOT contributing money to the school or volunteering?
If I give money to a homeless man, or hold a door open for someone...or do anything nice for someone, I don't say or even think, "Oh goody! NOW I'll get into heaven!" or that I'm doing this "in the name of Christ." If anything, I'll thank God (silently) for giving me an opportunity to help/be nice to someone.
Why waste a perfectly good thanks on God? He had nothing to do with it. Your good heart had everything to do with it. If God really cared about that homeless man he'd have arranged for him to find a hundred dollar bill lying on the street. I can show you a homeless encampment filled with Christians who are starving and out of work and don't know where their children's next meal is coming from. Why doesn't God help them? Why do they have to wait around for someone with a good heart to venture by before they all drop dead of hunger?
I recall a Christmas when a woman and her little daughter were outside our local market holding up a placard saying, "Poor. Hungry. Please help us." I stopped and took her into the market and gave her a shopping cart and told her to buy what she needed. She put into the cart a large rump roast, milk, cheese, and several other items that totaled around $100. This was before the inflation surge so money went much further then. She didn't eat because God loves her. She ate because I happened to be driving out of the lot and saw her and wanted to give her a helping hand.
People don't eat because God loves them. They eat because good people like you, phet, myself, outback and others with good hearts take upon themselves the stuff God should be doing because he's the one responsible for them. He created them and then like a drunken deadbeat dad he dumped them to Child Welfare Services. God doesn't care about them. He doesn't even know they exist. God doesn't deserve the time of day, much less our thanks under the mistaken belief that it was he who arranged for us to stumble over some down-and-outs that we choose to help out.
True - All humans have faults regardless of religious beliefs. There are bad Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Quakers, Hindus, Buddhist, Amish, etc. No one religion has perfect followers.
Yeah. Hey, what goes, "Clip-clop BANG! Clip-clop BANG!"?
Amish drive-by.
I'm going to hell. Gonna report myself to mensaguy.
As you have accurately pointed out, the historical Jesus is still a mystery. One must take His existence on faith.
I've never met the Man physically. Or anyone who has
I'm not much interested in the individual revelations of most. Nor do I still place much emphasis on those numerous organizations and institutions that claim supremecy in their interpretations and methods.
I do want to understand the beatitudes, and the words written in red. Those words are revolutionary. And for me at least, provide great comfort.
Attribute those words in red to whomever you wish. The fact is, those words written in red exist.
If there is a metaphorical throne, or king, or Supreme idea, it is for me the author of those words.
No, there is no "must" about taking his existence on faith.
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If anything, I'll thank God (silently) for giving me an opportunity to help/be nice to someone.
