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To judge Christianity by a minority group within the Evangelical church (which in itself is a minority religion) is kind of crazy.
Promise Keepers is an Evangelical Christian parachurch organization for men. This is one of the 40 denominations of Evangelical churches. Evangelicals are only 25% of US Christians and only a fraction of worldwide Christians. It doesn't reflect Catholic, Byzantine, Orthodox or even mainline Christian Churches.
The problem in the US is that that 25% has an outsize influence on public policy and secular life, so you can't dismiss it as some wild fringe group of little import. And there are no effective counters to it in the rest of Christianity, meaning I virtually never see liberal Christian leadership push back on their crazy-uncle-in-the-basement evangelical brethren. Instead they are more like you, they see them as "not representative of Christianity" when in fact they, along with televangelists and pentecostals and charismatics, are something that I'd think they'd find to be an embarrassment.
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Originally Posted by YorktownGal
I'm sure that this poor woman had a bad experience which is no reflection on Christianity. I'm sure that a Hasidic woman would have a very different experience from a Reformed Temple member - it doesn't negate Judaism anymore than your link negates Christianity.
NO reflection AT ALL? To me this is the problem. Liberal christian leadership isn't willing to either disavow or call out authoritarian Christians; rather, they want to just ignore them and say that they don't matter, despite that they are literally rewriting the social contract in highly regressive ways in this country, and embracing downright immoral tactics to get their way.
From what I have seen in my admittedly limited observation, Hasidic Judaism seems more capable of interacting with former members who become reformed or secular Jews, than fundamentalists are of interacting with former members who become liberal Christians or agnostics or atheists. There's in fact a whole "reality" show depicting the experiences of former hasidic Jews and it shows their still-hasidic exes having decent / civil relations with their entire family.
There's something about authoritarian Christians, on the other hand, that makes them live in terror of being seen as "condoning sin" in people that leave the in-group. Lots more pearl-clutching.
It is interesting. Because of all those things it's just Jesus that keeps you from getting in to trouble with sex, drugs and rock and roll. Which is mainly what Jesus is for. To help us feel good about behaving in an orderly social manner. Well, that and the eternal life deal.
But none of that "changed my life" stuff really tells us if the Judeo- Christian version of all this is true. It's not evidence of anything except that the person has changed their thoughts or at least their behaviors.
And none of the apologetics surrounding Jesus means anything.
The only real proof that it is true is if Jesus returns like he said would. It is my belief based on my own observations that every one of us will die a natural death and that Jesus will not have returned. Thus passing the controversy to the succeeding generations. They will wrestle with it and pass it on to their succeeding generations.
It is my hope that Christianity will slowly evolve back to Jesus social message as opposed to emphasis on blood sacrifice for sins. And that the return of Jesus will go on the back burner sort of like how the "imminent coming" of the Messiah has occurred in the Jewish faith.
Some good points you make.
I tend to agree about this “Second Coming”, or Rapture needs to be given less emphasis.
But certain Christian groups are obsessed with it, and looking for signs and symbols from the Book of Revelation, and have been for centuries.
Then there are those calling the Pope the Antichrist etc, which obviously gets under my skin, but there are Christians who go on with it.
And the classical story of the drug addict or prostitute or felon turning to God etc, gets blown way out of proportion and context.
I certainly don't have a problem with Christian groups or people within any Christian group who emphasizes the social gospel of Jesus. It is the blood sacrifice emphasis that is troubling to me for many reasons..... both from a logic perspective a religious/political perspective and dealing with these folks on a personal level is also hard to do sometimes.
You know . . . I never thought of it as a blood sacrifice.
I know from my own experience - childbirth is a bloody event. I thought the Crucifixion was a type of childbirth (of a religion vs baby).
I agree that fundamentalist are hard to deal with personally and politically, but there is nothing anyone can do about it. It's been like that since the beginning of time and will be until the end of time. Troubled people gravitate to fundamentalism in all religions. It's not just a Christian problem.
Now if we had a state religion and could stop it, we wouldn't be the USA with the Bill of Rights.
I agree that fundamentalist are hard to deal with personally and politically, but there is nothing anyone can do about it. It's been like that since the beginning of time and will be until the end of time.
I agree it's an archetypal issue, but that doesn't mean it's harmless or shouldn't (or can't) be countered as much as possible. There are many such issues in the world -- climate change, fascism, religious fanatacism etc. we will always have with us but they can gain the levers of power and cause untold suffering so we need to oppose them at every turn.
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Originally Posted by YorktownGal
Troubled people gravitate to fundamentalism in all religions. It's not just a Christian problem.
No one is suggesting that it's unique to Christianity -- only that Christians don't adequately address it to the extent it exists for them. I would level the same critique to any other religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal
Now if we had a state religion and could stop it, we wouldn't be the USA with the Bill of Rights.
It is not a question of denying fundamentalists their beliefs or practices, it is only a question of requiring them to confine their beliefs and practices to their own in-group and not try to impose it on other Christians or on non-Christians.
I am trying to see the value in your vitriol and negativity toward Christianity, Thrill. I suppose that pointing out the deleterious and destructive aspects of the dogma would be useful IF those who adhere to that negativity and abuse it against others (like Ray Comfort) would actually pay attention. But I doubt any of them do. None of those negative aspects of Christianity have anything to do with Christ anyway. I believe that the dominant religion that is practiced under the name of Christianity should probably be called BIBLEianity!
The so-called Christianity you were victim of and that you rail against is actually the worship of the Bible as the word of God instead of Jesus Christ - who is the ONE AND ONLY Word of God (Logos). It is sad but it seems to be so thoroughly indoctrinated that it is unchangeable. Your "in-your-face" diatribes are simply ignored as blasphemy and proof of the promised persecution like what was heaped on Jesus. It is a no-win proposition, Thrill.
It's a win for me if I keep greenhorns from falling into Christianity's maw. People don't know what they're getting themselves into when they decide to become Christian. It's like signing an eternal contract to sell your soul to the devil. Did you ever stop to think that maybe the devil is the good guy and Jesus is the bad guy, Mystic?
Mystic, how on earth can you belong to a religion that doesn't even know if it's coming or going? Look at these two websites:
The problem in the US is that that 25% has an outsize influence on public policy and secular life, so you can't dismiss it as some wild fringe group of little import. And there are no effective counters to it in the rest of Christianity, meaning I virtually never see liberal Christian leadership push back on their crazy-uncle-in-the-basement evangelical brethren. Instead they are more like you, they see them as "not representative of Christianity" when in fact they, along with televangelists and pentecostals and charismatics, are something that I'd think they'd find to be an embarrassment.
NO reflection AT ALL? To me this is the problem. Liberal christian leadership isn't willing to either disavow or call out authoritarian Christians; rather, they want to just ignore them and say that they don't matter, despite that they are literally rewriting the social contract in highly regressive ways in this country, and embracing downright immoral tactics to get their way.
From what I have seen in my admittedly limited observation, Hasidic Judaism seems more capable of interacting with former members who become reformed or secular Jews, than fundamentalists are of interacting with former members who become liberal Christians or agnostics or atheists. There's in fact a whole "reality" show depicting the experiences of former hasidic Jews and it shows their still-hasidic exes having decent / civil relations with their entire family.
There's something about authoritarian Christians, on the other hand, that makes them live in terror of being seen as "condoning sin" in people that leave the in-group. Lots more pearl-clutching.
Progressive Christians do tend to speak up against evangelical tyranny on the individual or parish/laity level, but not so much when you go up the ladder. I enjoyed my time in the Episcopal church because of meeting so many people who genuinely cared for their fellows and for justice in society, but at the diocesan level, it's like a corporation where everyone is vying for power and attention and can't get their heads out of their own asses.
Progressive Christians do tend to speak up against evangelical tyranny on the individual or parish/laity level, but not so much when you go up the ladder. I enjoyed my time in the Episcopal church because of meeting so many people who genuinely cared for their fellows and for justice in society, but at the diocesan level, it's like a corporation where everyone is vying for power and attention and can't get their heads out of their own asses.
Agreed, which is why I'm careful to keep that critique at a high (generally regional or national) leadership level. Ordinary People are just trying to get by, earn a living, and stay out of trouble, they can't all take to the streets. But I think it's a mistake for the high muck-a-mucks not to consider it a priority to put some real effort into articulating what's wrong with fundamentalism and to point out that there are better ways.
One problem might be that the mainline denominations tend to represent the more socially elite / affluent and they are not up for a street fight -- or don't have the sense not to bring a knife to a gunfight. What I'm suggesting isn't very polite or genteel, after all, lol.
The science says that there is no supernatural dimension. We die and then we are like what we were a million years ago. I'd be the first to sign up if there was a scintilla of evidence of an afterlife. But there isn't any. Took me 60 years to come to my senses thanks to the Internet. Young people have the luxury of researching all this like I did but they are too busy just trying to survive in this pithole of a planet. Best they find out the reality of things now before they waste their life on an imaginary afterlife and get on with the only life they'll ever get right here.
The touted afterlife is life of Thrill after the death of the body. Afterlife such as this is an imagined state and can be discounted as nonsense.
However, there is another "afterlife" state that you might consider. It's the state in which Thrill has vanished (died) while the body is still alive. Is this possible?
Sportmen, athletes, artists, ballet dancers such as Nureyev, had attested to being in the zone in moments of peak performance when the performer has disappeared (ceased to exist). Such a state is ephemeral lasting seconds before a time-bound reality reasserts itself. Can such a momentary state of selflessness persist throughout the life of the body?
Being retired I have a lot of time to reflect. Lately I have been reflecting on the decision I made 10 years ago to leave Jesus and Christianity. It happened circa 2012 when someone in here challenged me to research Jesus and see if I could find any historical evidence for him outside the Bible. So I spent about 6 months researching Jesus and found that indeed there was no historical evidence for Jesus. That was when the foundations of my faith cracked.
Actually they had cracked earlier back circa 2000 or so. I had gotten ill and requested the church elders to come over and pray over me per James 5:14-16
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. 16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
They did and we followed all the instructions in James. Still the illness persisted. It wasn't until I saw a doctor and took some medicine he prescribed that I was healed. God didn't heal me, the doctor and the medicine he prescribed did. Actually that was when the first cracks in the foundation of my faith started. But I put it away and didn't think about it.
It was around 2012 or so that I began noticing that my prayers NEVER got answered, not just in that instance in 2000 but I mean anytime I prayed there never was a noticeable change in my life. Things always stayed the same. I put two and two together and realized that everything about Christianity was pure hogwash. The only thing Christianity ever did was put a dent in my wallet because of tithing. So I stopped tithing. From there I lost the desire to pray. Previously I was on my knees twice a day in the morning and before going to bed arms lifted up to God to give thanks and to pray for sin to cease in my life--you know, all the things the churchmen tell you to pray about if you want to please God.
I slowly began to come to a realization. I was losing my faith despite praying to God to save me from losing my faith. I still had no desire to continue with him. I slowly came to another realization. God and Jesus simply didn't care if I left them. Nothing changed in my life. There were no visits from the Holy Spirit to save me. There were no extraordinary happenings to give me a sign. It was a complete blank. The only thing extraordinary that did happen was that I came into a lot of money via inheritance a few years ago when a wealthy relative passed away. I now have more money than I can spend in my remaining years.
Gradually I realized that all the balderdash I had been fed by other Christians was completely false. No evidence for Jesus; no prayers getting answered; no manifestations of anything supernatural in my life. I found what millions of other Christians are finding every day: God and Jesus simply do not exist.
It's been ten years since I left Jesus. I have a temper in my old age, not against other people but against myself when I do stupid things like spilling coffee on the floor. I swear up a storm using the names Jesus and God in every conceivable blasphemous combination you can imagine. Nothing happens to me. A bolt of lightning doesn't come down and strike me.
God doesn't touch me. I have no fear of retribution from God anymore because I know Jesus isn't real and never was so he has no power over me. My life continues as it always has. No repercussions from God. No nothing from God.
Those of you who want to leave Christianity but are fearful you'll get smitten by God, don't worry. I assure 10000% nothing will happen to you. Your life will continue uninterrupted and in many ways it will actually get better. Mine did.
Try saying this prayer: "God I want to leave you and Jesus behind but I don't know if I should. Please give me some sort of sign I should stay with Jesus and I will. In Jesus name I ask. Amen"
I can assure you absolutely nothing will happen that is a clear sign you should stay with God. He doesn't care what you do, stay or leave. He simply doesn't care. You'll slowly come to the realization you've been talking to empty air all these years. I did.
That's my story. Any other ex-Christians have a story to tell?
I read the book “The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity “ by Hyam Mccoby. It definitely made an impression on me. Then, if you read the NT in chronological order you begin to see the contradictions and the incongruence between Jewish Jesus and the “Christian” Jesus, the one Paul definitely invented.
If you have Netflix, I suggest you watch “The Marketing of the Messiah”. It’s lighthearted, hilarious in places but it is well documented by several biblical scholars.
The touted afterlife is life of Thrill after the death of the body. Afterlife such as this is an imagined state and can be discounted as nonsense.
However, there is another "afterlife" state that you might consider. It's the state in which Thrill has vanished (died) while the body is still alive. Is this possible?
Sportmen, athletes, artists, ballet dancers such as Nureyev, had attested to being in the zone in moments of peak performance when the performer has disappeared (ceased to exist). Such a state is ephemeral lasting seconds before a time-bound reality reasserts itself. Can such a momentary state of selflessness persist throughout the life of the body?
What you're referring to, myuen is the "runner's high"
''As you hit your stride, your body releases hormones called endorphins. Popular culture identifies these as the chemicals behind “runner's high,” a short-lasting, deeply euphoric state following intense exercise."
It has nothing to do with supernatural or spiritual nonsense of a spirit separating from the body. Only about 3% of people who "die" express NDEs. What happens to the other 97%? They say it was blackness and no awareness until they resumed consciousness. If they hadn't been revived it be permanent eternal non-consciousness. That's what awaits us when we die--eternal nothingness. When you die, you're dead and that's the end of you. Sad but true until science says otherwise.
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