Contemplating my decision to leave Christianity (cult, sinned, Hebrew, historical)
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So god made people suffer so that later other people wouldn't suffer. Even though he was all-powerful and could have ended slavery by his own power.
Every corner of the ancient world had slavery.
Slavery in China has taken various forms throughout history. Slavery was abolished as a legally recognized institution, including in a 1909 law fully enacted in 1910, although the practice continued until at least 1949.
Japan had an official slave system from the Yamato period (3rd century A.D.) until Toyotomi Hideyoshi abolished it in 1590.
Early Islam recognized slavery as an institution and permitting enslavement of non-Muslims imprisoned or bought beyond the borders of Islamic rule. Children born to slaves were also considered legally as slaves. BTW, Islam had far more slaves for longer time in history than Christians.
Medieval Buddhist states codified slavery, combining local customary practices with derivatives of the Vedic Manusmriti. The series of Theravada Buddhist states covering Burma and North West India observed the 14 kinds of slavery set out in the Wareru Dhammathat, while Slavery in Bhutan was regulated into the mid 20th century by a local derivation of the Tibetan Buddhism Tsa Yig Chenmo.
Native South American had slaves well before the White Men showed up. Indigenous Americans enslaved one another as well.
There is no ethnicity or region or religion of the world where slavery was not used. It was the early Christian Church which ended slavery in Europe.
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Originally Posted by Mink57
Does a "good father" discipline his children?
Does a "good father" sometimes punish his child(ren)?
It's the huge difference between the Old and New Testament. The early Christians debated on whether to include the Old Testament with the New Testament. There was an early Christian belief that the New Testament would be efficient. I sort of get why the two are linked, overall I think the Old Testament is confusing.
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Originally Posted by phetaroi
Allowing people to be placed in slavery is not disciplining them.
Agreed.
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Originally Posted by phetaroi
And do you realize the position that the dominant christian sect in the American South had toward slavery? Do you realize that a century later that sect FINALLY apologized for their attitude toward slavery. A little too late for tens of thousands of slaves. Many of those slave owners went to christian churches that upheld their belief in slavery. Gee, maybe god should have had a little chat with them.
I'm sure God did have a little chat with them with all the slave owners in every single country since the beginning of man.
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Originally Posted by thrillobyte
When Christianity says, "Accept Jesus as your savior or you'll go to hell and burn forever",
THAT'S ABUSE!
Doesn't every religion say believe me or be ruined/go to hell/or something likewise? So are all religions abusive?
The problem with "accept Jesus or burn in hell" is it distorts theology.
It's kind of like when you scream to your kids to "do this or ELSE!" It doesn't teach kids the reason of why they should not put their hands on a hot stove top or jump off the roof. It's just loud noise.
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Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Well, that's how I was trained to believe about God. As a Catholic, AAMOF.
The nuns used to terrify us with this "You're gonna burn in hell for all eternity if you French kiss that girl. That's a mortal sin!" They were mostly frigid old biddies foisting their hangups about men onto us innocent boys. That's child abuse too.
It's less child abuse and more as a mistake.
The Nuns told my mother that Brooklyn College was taught by communists. Back then, in the 1950's, Brooklyn College was free. My mother listened to the Nuns. She attended an expensive college and left because of the costs (not much different from students' experiences today).
My mother blamed the Nuns, but my mother didn't examined what anyone said to her. Her sister disregarded the Nuns' advice and graduated from Brooklyn College. My aunt was more of willing to see the possibilities in situations whereas my mother was more of a black/white thinker.
Two people - same message - two different outcomes.
Doesn't every religion say believe me or be ruined/go to hell/or something likewise? So are all religions abusive?
The problem with "accept Jesus or burn in hell" is it distorts theology.
It's kind of like when you scream to your kids to "do this or ELSE!" It doesn't teach kids the reason of why they should not put their hands on a hot stove top or jump off the roof. It's just loud noise.
It's less child abuse and more as a mistake.
The Nuns told my mother that Brooklyn College was taught by communists. Back then, in the 1950's, Brooklyn College was free. My mother listened to the Nuns. She attended an expensive college and left because of the costs (not much different from students' experiences today).
My mother blamed the Nuns, but my mother didn't examined what anyone said to her. Her sister disregarded the Nuns' advice and graduated from Brooklyn College. My aunt was more of willing to see the possibilities in situations whereas my mother was more of a black/white thinker.
Two people - same message - two different outcomes.
The fact that lots of religions teach hell to some extent doesn't excuse the Christian faith anymore than saying that secular child abuse is rampant provides a defense for a serial child abuser in court.
The fact that lots of religions teach hell to some extent doesn't excuse the Christian faith anymore than saying that secular child abuse is rampant provides a defense for a serial child abuser in court.
You are right about that. I'm sorry for the abuse you suffered under the Nuns and Church.
I think it's important to put things in historical perspective. The early nuns were probably were very different from nuns of the 1950's/60's/70's.
In the early 1900's, many of the nuns born came from badly off countries and cultures. Becoming a nun was a way out of poverty out of early 20th century. Many of these women came from backwards, rural towns with stratified social divisions. Also nuns from different countries i.e. Italy, Ireland or England had different views of children from their cultures. Italian Montessori Catholic schools were very different from any Irish school. And, as a result WWI and WWII, there were women refugees searching for a way to escape from the world. IMHO, joining any religious organization to economic reasons or as an escape doesn't bode well.
OTOH, the Catholic Church had many hospitals and schools to serve. The Church perform their charity with unpaid labor provided by these "economic refugee" nuns. The Church needed higher qualifications for recruiting nuns. However, the Church needed so many - it was hard to separate the wheat from the chaff - or - to judge will choose the right nuns from the bad ones.
The 20th Century was a mess. Two world wars, countless other smaller wars, revolutions, depressions played a role in developing these nuns. Add to the mix, society allowed (probably encouraged) corporal punishment.
This is just my explanation on how it happened. It's complicated.
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There is a movie that's hard to watch - the Innocents. It is the haunting rendition of a real-life story, adapted from the diaries of French Red Cross doctor, Madeleine Pauliac. It's about "Mathilde is a French Red Cross doctor working on a mission to help the French survivors of the German camps. While she works in Poland, she is asked for help by a nun. In her convent, several nuns are pregnant." https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4370784/
Basically, Soviet Communist soldiers raped a Polish convent. The nuns were naive without any knowledge of sex. The Abbess refused to allow doctors to examine the nuns as she feared that the pregnant nuns would be slandered/banished/vilified/tarnished. Of course, she was wrong and a nun found a doctor to help.
It wasn't that the Abbess was cruel, it was that she lived in a pre-WWII world. When the world changed and she could not hand an unthinkable situation. She couldn't adjust. She was human like the rest of us. So bad things happened in good convents, but all of life is complicated
You are right about that. I'm sorry for the abuse you suffered under the Nuns and Church.
I think it's important to put things in historical perspective. The early nuns were probably were very different from nuns of the 1950's/60's/70's.
In the early 1900's, many of the nuns born came from badly off countries and cultures. Becoming a nun was a way out of poverty out of early 20th century. Many of these women came from backwards, rural towns with stratified social divisions. Also nuns from different countries i.e. Italy, Ireland or England had different views of children from their cultures. Italian Montessori Catholic schools were very different from any Irish school. And, as a result WWI and WWII, there were women refugees searching for a way to escape from the world. IMHO, joining any religious organization to economic reasons or as an escape doesn't bode well.
OTOH, the Catholic Church had many hospitals and schools to serve. The Church perform their charity with unpaid labor provided by these "economic refugee" nuns. The Church needed higher qualifications for recruiting nuns. However, the Church needed so many - it was hard to separate the wheat from the chaff - or - to judge will choose the right nuns from the bad ones.
The 20th Century was a mess. Two world wars, countless other smaller wars, revolutions, depressions played a role in developing these nuns. Add to the mix, society allowed (probably encouraged) corporal punishment.
This is just my explanation on how it happened. It's complicated.
-------------------------------------------------
There is a movie that's hard to watch - the Innocents. It is the haunting rendition of a real-life story, adapted from the diaries of French Red Cross doctor, Madeleine Pauliac. It's about "Mathilde is a French Red Cross doctor working on a mission to help the French survivors of the German camps. While she works in Poland, she is asked for help by a nun. In her convent, several nuns are pregnant." https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4370784/
Basically, Soviet Communist soldiers raped a Polish convent. The nuns were naive without any knowledge of sex. The Abbess refused to allow doctors to examine the nuns as she feared that the pregnant nuns would be slandered/banished/vilified/tarnished. Of course, she was wrong and a nun found a doctor to help.
It wasn't that the Abbess was cruel, it was that she lived in a pre-WWII world. When the world changed and she could not hand an unthinkable situation. She couldn't adjust. She was human like the rest of us. So bad things happened in good convents, but all of life is complicated
Most of what you say is true. And it is extremely complex. Bottom line: nuns should never have been allowed near children. Most were completely unqualified to teach children during the 40's-60's. No teaching certificate, no BA's, no experience teaching. They were free bodies thrown into a foreign environment because they were free labor far as the Diocese was concerned--money saved not having to pay qualified secular teachers.
The fact that lots of religions teach hell to some extent doesn't excuse the Christian faith anymore than saying that secular child abuse is rampant provides a defense for a serial child abuser in court.
It’s obviously no excuse.
I get more triggered though by Evangelicals constantly pointing the finger at the Vatican, while keeping their own issues shrouded in a cloak of secrecy.
Another fave saying is that a Backsliding Christian- was never a Christian to begin with!
Although this is Biblically supported, we all know it is a load of hogwash, to keep the sheep flock in check.
It’s obviously no excuse.
I get more triggered though by Evangelicals constantly pointing the finger at the Vatican, while keeping their own issues shrouded in a cloak of secrecy.
Another fave saying is that a Backsliding Christian- was never a Christian to begin with!
Although this is Biblically supported, we all know it is a load of hogwash, to keep the sheep flock in check.
Christianity may have started off as something noble. In the days when Jesus was believed to be a spirit and not a real incarnated god, the Christians were doing charity work among the poor. As the religion took off after Constantine and the higher-up churchmen were handed the reins of power to pretty much call the shots, that's when the rot set in. The churchmen loved their fine robes and good foods and palatial living quarters and all the money flowing in from looting the pagan temples and they were determined to keep it all at any cost, even murder. Their cohorts started pillaging and plundering anything that sniffed of pagan because the popes and cardinals and bishops were killing two birds with one stone; 1. they suppressed anything that threatened their wealth and position and 2. all the plundering added mountains of loot to their coffers. When murder and extermination weren't an option that's when they began using the little tricks of the trade: 1. you'll go to hell if you don't do as we say 2. the confessional to ferret out secret info the clergy wanted to know about traitors in their midst 3. keeping the Bible from the hands of the common people and making it a capital offense to possess one 4. only a priest can forgive your sin and keep you from going to hell 5. all power on earth has been given to the Church to guide its people to heaven. Don't mess with us.
And of course they stifled science because science was knowledge and knowledge was dangerous to the Church. They wanted the people kept in ignorance because an ignorant people can be led around like cattle. And on and on. It's a dirty rotten institution and the shame of it is that it was in a postion to do a lot of good if its leaders hadn't been rotten to the core.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 01-13-2023 at 07:24 PM..
Christianity may have started off as something noble. In the days when Jesus was believed to be a spirit and not a real incarnated god, the Christians were doing charity work among the poor. As the religion took off after Constantine and the higher-up churchmen were handed the reins of power to pretty much call the shots, that's when the rot set in. The churchmen loved their fine robes and good foods and palatial living quarters and all the money flowing in from looting the pagan temples and they were determined to keep it all at any cost, even murder. Their cohorts started pillaging and plundering anything that sniffed of pagan because the popes and cardinals and bishops were killing two birds with one stone; 1. they suppressed anything that threatened their wealth and position and 2. all the plundering added mountains of loot to their coffers. When murder and extermination weren't an option that's when they began using the little tricks of the trade: 1. you'll go to hell if you don't do as we say 2. the confessional to ferret out secret info the clergy wanted to know about traitors in their midst 3. keeping the Bible from the hands of the common people and making it a capital offense to possess one 4. only a priest can forgive your sin and keep you from going to hell 5. all power on earth has been given to the Church to guide its people to heaven. Don't mess with us.
And of course they stifled science because science was knowledge and knowledge was dangerous to the Church. They wanted the people kept in ignorance because an ignorant people can be led around like cattle. And on and on. It's a dirty rotten institution and the shame of it is that it was in a postion to do a lot of good if its leaders hadn't been rotten to the core.
Re: the anti science stuff.
The Catholic Church does accept science, much more so than many other groups.
Just watch the Living Waters church give a whole lecture trying to debunk the theory of Evolution.
And this is coming from people who have never studied any biological sciences in their life.
Although the topic is generally banned here, science and religion are not mutually exclusive.
The rest of your post reads as a typical Protestant assessment and evaluation of the Catholic Church, and it’s history.
Re: the anti science stuff.
The Catholic Church does accept science, much more so than many other groups.
Just watch the Living Waters church give a whole lecture trying to debunk the theory of Evolution.
And this is coming from people who have never studied any biological sciences in their life.
Although the topic is generally banned here, science and religion are not mutually exclusive.
The rest of your post reads as a typical Protestant assessment and evaluation of the Catholic Church, and it’s history.
And tell me: did the Church accept science when Galileo was trying to convince the world that the earth revolved around the sun?
And of course they stifled science because science was knowledge and knowledge was dangerous to the Church.
I doubt that. The early Christian lost a lot of scientific knowledge because it did not follow their pneumatic theology, so they simply did not copy it.
And of course they stifled science because science was knowledge and knowledge was dangerous to the Church. They wanted the people kept in ignorance because an ignorant people can be led around like cattle. And on and on. It's a dirty rotten institution and the shame of it is that it was in a postion to do a lot of good if its leaders hadn't been rotten to the core.
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Galileo studied speed and velocity, gravity and free fall, the principle of relativity, inertia, projectile motion and also worked in applied science and technology, describing the properties of pendulums and "hydrostatic balances". He invented the thermoscope and various military compasses, and used the telescope for scientific observations of celestial objects. His contributions to observational astronomy include telescopic confirmation of the phases of Venus, observation of the four largest satellites of Jupiter, observation of Saturn's rings, and analysis of lunar craters and sunspots.
Galileo's championing of Copernican heliocentrism (Earth rotating daily and revolving around the Sun) was met with opposition from within the Catholic Church and from some astronomers. The matter was investigated by the Roman Inquisition in 1615, which concluded that heliocentrism was foolish, absurd, and heretical since it contradicted Holy Scripture.
[My note: there was no punishment for Galileo's work at this time]
Galileo later defended his views in Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems (1632), which appeared to attack Pope Urban VIII and thus alienated both the Pope and the Jesuits, who had both supported Galileo up until this point.. He was tried by the Inquisition, found "vehemently suspect of heresy", and forced to recant. He spent the rest of his life under house arrest. During this time, he wrote Two New Sciences (1638), primarily concerning kinematics and the strength of materials, summarizing work he had done around forty years earlier.
The Pope and Jesuits supported Galileo until he attacked them.
After all, even the Ancient Greeks knew that the earth went around the sun. Copernicus said the earth went around the sixty years before Galileo. It was only when Galileo attacked the Pope that this "discovery" became an issue.
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The immediate result of the 1543 publication of Copernicus's book was only mild controversy. At the Council of Trent (1545–63) neither Copernicus's theory nor calendar reform were discussed. It has been much debated why it was not until six decades after the publication of De revolutionibus that the Catholic Church took any official action against it, even the efforts of Tolosani going unheeded. Catholic side opposition only commenced seventy-three years later, when it was occasioned by Galileo.
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