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Exploring this as well as the subsequent "I feared for my life" comment. Is that an important attribute? If a group is lighting buildings on fire, but I am not in one, should I forgo shooting? Another noted when seconds count and the police are minutes away.
Does knowledge of the target have to be known? An old warehouse vs an orphanage filled with children? If I am not in danger, do I simply make the 911 call when I've got the line of site, position and equipment to take the shot to end it?
how you defend yourself is entirely up to you...........
It's hard to just answer yes or no, I think it depends on the circumstances. If you/people around you are legitimately in jeopardy of serious physical harm/death as a direct result of a looter/rioter's actions, then I think the answer is yes. However, if this is not the case, then I think you should probably not engage and just let the looter/rioter face the legal consequences of his or her actions.
However, I think that by rioting and looting, any meaningful debate or governance is immediately disregarded because the looters/rioters end up drowning out actual protest groups by causing so much chaos, and nothing is ever accomplished.
I also think that the notable protest groups present in these cases are hard to take seriously. We get it, Black Lives Matter, we know you're mad that another black person was killed by a white person/police officer. In many cases, the death was certainly unjustifiable, and the white person/police officer should deservedly face serious consequences for his actions. HOWEVER.....statistically speaking, there really are not *that many* interracial murders. 2016 is the most recent year that I can find detailed FBI statistics regarding this, but of the 2,870 murders of blacks/African Americans, 243 (roughly 8.47%) were by whites, 2,570 (roughly 89.55%) were by blacks, and the remaining 57 cases were from other or unknown races. The numbers were slightly different for whites, but the same general principal holds true; 3,499 total murders of whites, 2,854 (81.57%) were by whites, 533 (15.23%) were by blacks, and the remaining 112 cases were by other or unknown races. Why then does Black Lives Matter routinely ignore 90% of black murders to focus on the 8.5%??? Do all black lives truly matter, or only the ones that were ended by whites? Perhaps there is a reason why nothing ever really changes....
That's a valid point but probably lost on most of the violent protesters....
I give you one main reason that cops use excessive force because our criminal justice system just aren't effective anymore. When you're a police officer in an urban city, you see the same kind of crime each day. You make a civil arrest and the criminal hits you back and you can't do anything. The criminal is released the same day with a fine and no bail required. The criminal is out on the loose again. Then several hours later the criminal is caught yet again in a violent crime beating or mugging someone. The cops arrest him again, same result.
Our system is putting police officers work in jeopardy and no longer rehabbing criminals or doing anything to end the cycle of repeat offenders.
Many cops just tired of being picked on by criminals because of recent anti-cop movement. Many don't want to make any arrests, just go write up traffic tickets and leave the poor neighborhoods to fend for themselves (Chicago south side)
Some neighborhoods are so bad because police are no longer policing due to police being blamed for excessive force yet criminal justice not putting criminals away.
American justice system has no solution for repeat criminals that terrorize innocent people and police officers are tired of the rotating door of re-arresting the same felons. Once you fix the criminal justice system by putting a lot of people away for good for a long time they will realize committing a crime is not a joke. Right now as long as they don't get caught killing anybody they can continue to rob, steal, mug anyone without fearing doing hard time.
Of course shooting is not acceptable for crimes against property. But, something severe needs to happen when 'mobs' of looters and arsonists use "a legitimate protest" as an excuse to loot and burn property. This has happened in Ferguson and now Minneapolis ... and elsewhere.
No rational, civil person condones the apparent treatment of Floyd by the police, and this must be dealt with in the courts, like any other illegal action. But, this lawless rampage (NOT a "response" as some try to paint it) is even more reprehensible and equally perverse -- and has nothing to do with race!
I do not understand the mindset of people who use any opportunity (such as a major storm, or the lights going out in a city, wrongdoing by public officials) ...to steal, loot, rob, burn, etc..... and then pretend that their actions are somehow civilized or justified.
I give you one main reason that cops use excessive force because our criminal justice system just aren't effective anymore. When you're a police officer in an urban city, you see the same kind of crime each day. You make a civil arrest and the criminal hits you back and you can't do anything. The criminal is released the same day with a fine and no bail required. The criminal is out on the loose again. Then several hours later the criminal is caught yet again in a violent crime beating or mugging someone. The cops arrest him again, same result.
Our system is putting police officers work in jeopardy and no longer rehabbing criminals or doing anything to end the cycle of repeat offenders.
Many cops just tired of being picked on by criminals because of recent anti-cop movement. Many don't want to make any arrests, just go write up traffic tickets and leave the poor neighborhoods to fend for themselves (Chicago south side)
Some neighborhoods are so bad because police are no longer policing due to police being blamed for excessive force yet criminal justice not putting criminals away.
American justice system has no solution for repeat criminals that terrorize innocent people and police officers are tired of the rotating door of re-arresting the same felons. Once you fix the criminal justice system by putting a lot of people away for good for a long time they will realize committing a crime is not a joke. Right now as long as they don't get caught killing anybody they can continue to rob, steal, mug anyone without fearing doing hard time.
True that's a great point, which is why I'm surprised that 'Robocops' haven't become promoted for the worst areas. Certain businesses in bad urban areas incur private security costs due to protection of their personnel such as utility workers in these areas.
A robocop could be programmed with appropriate response even executing justice on the spot when warranted.... hmmm,..... Bill Gates could do it with some MSFT software and help meet his goal of reducing the population at the same time!
What do you do if your car is being surrounded by rioters and you know they're about to break the windows, jump on it, etc?
Floor it. Drive as fast as you can out of the area, even if it means running people over. And don’t hesitate to drive through traffic barricades, up onto the sidewalk, or drive in reverse in order to get clear, if the street in front of you is blocked. Your life is in immediate danger!
This is one reason I’m not completely opposed to the idea of shooting rioting looters. Under normal circumstances it’s wrong to kill a person who is only committing a property crime. But in a riot, what begins as property crimes can morph into things that are far worse, and do so with little warning. The dangers posed by arson have already been mentioned in this thread, but what has not been brought up is that innocent people caught inside a riot can be killed. Lynchings of “outsiders” or “bad people” (however the mob is defining those categories) are not rare. We had a person shot to death last night in a riot in downtown Omaha - and it was NOT the police who fired the bullet.
Don’t participate in or go to watch marches or protests if you suspect they may turn violent. If you are a participant or spectator at a mass gathering and you feel the mood of the crowd is beginning to worsen, leave at once while you still safely can! You want no part of being caught in a mob.
I've been a law officer in two states (NYPD, retired lt., MA retired chief of police). I suggest you take a look at NY State Penal Law Article 35, Defense of Justification. It lays out the restrictions on the use of force (and when force is authorized) in a very clear and concise manner. Do keep in mind this is "black type law." That is, there are rulings that come out of court cases that will impact how such laws are viewed by the courts.
NY State Penal Law Article 35, Defense of Justificaiton:
For example, the use of deadly physical force is lawful (with caveats!!), as seen below:
(b) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing
or attempting to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible criminal
sexual act or robbery; or
(c) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing
or attempting to commit a burglary, and the circumstances are such that
the use of deadly physical force is authorized by subdivision three of
section 35.20.
I used to teach this stuff, many years ago, when I conducted the NYPD's Police Firearms Instructor School. I also wrote a book on the Use of Force in Modern Policing in which this subject was discussed.
Rich
That is why I asked which US state you are applying to your statement. No, I have been to NY and MA last fall and see no reason to return. Nothing personal!
I had the pleasure to go through it on a regular basis in several states.
A person attempting to enter my home by force and me fearing for my life is bound not be a happy camper.
Lofting, rioting, hackers and media stirring the pot has nothing to do with what many see as a racially motivated incident.
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