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Well, they're not ducks or birds of prey to use as target practice. If you're wondering about the legality of it, wouldn't it be more efficient and accurate to look up your state laws or ask the police, or take an approved course in the use of your weapon?
Exploring this as well as the subsequent "I feared for my life" comment. Is that an important attribute? If a group is lighting buildings on fire, but I am not in one, should I forgo shooting? Another noted when seconds count and the police are minutes away.
Does knowledge of the target have to be known? An old warehouse vs an orphanage filled with children? If I am not in danger, do I simply make the 911 call when I've got the line of site, position and equipment to take the shot to end it?
What this thread shows me is that there are many "conservatives" who are always yelling about following the Constitution, but don't really believe in the Constitution at all.
Please remind me, what does the Constitution prescribe for riots? Of course, there is due process under the law enforcement, but there is also a little part about rights of a militia...perhaps originally intended for Native American or European raids, but idea of a minutemen protecting a town rested on the very idea that the citizenry would need to provide for their own township defense.
This concept was not very confusing at the time, irrespective of whether you were a Federalist or not.
Exploring this as well as the subsequent "I feared for my life" comment. Is that an important attribute? If a group is lighting buildings on fire, but I am not in one, should I forgo shooting? Another noted when seconds count and the police are minutes away.
Does knowledge of the target have to be known? An old warehouse vs an orphanage filled with children? If I am not in danger, do I simply make the 911 call when I've got the line of site, position and equipment to take the shot to end it?
That's the problem with arson and fires as a whole. The wind changes fifteen degrees, and now the fire in the abandoned shed spreads onto the nursing home roof. It may jog a few memories to mention that the great fire in Peshtigo, WI happened on the same day as the Great Fire in Chicago, but with much worse loss of life. So, I don't think police should "play" when it comes to arsonists, it's just too serious. To your question, if you would have had a Barrett in Las Vegas in October of 2016, would you have taken out the idiot at Mandalay Bay? Not advocating that you take any action in your own city at this point, hopefully the mayors of our largest cities do the responsible thing and quell these riots before more innocent lives are ruined. That is their responsibility, and so far, they are failing at it.
Speaking in very general terms, as state law varies:
You may use deadly physical force (DPF/shooting in this instance) to terminate or prevent:
A DPF Attack
Rape
Armed Robbery
Burglary of an Occupied Dwelling
Arson
You may generally never use DPF to prevent or terminate a property crime. That is, a larceny (theft of property), destruction of property, theft in general.
You may not use DPF to stop a physical force attack.
Rich
how does one differentiate between physical force and deadly physical force? A slap to the face is just PF, but a well-trained martial arts blow to the neck is DPF?
When is the one suffering the attack allowed to decide between the 2?
So again, white folks see every shooting and killing of every black doing "wrong" as justified.
This is about whites killing blacks and continuing to live well and many times get a pat on the back for it.
I don't think that's what the topic about. Especially as race was never mentioned in the first post.
But what you have posted infers that if it was a black cop doing that to George Floyd, you'd feel differently about it.
Unless we're somehow talking about the shop owner who apparently killed a looter/vandalizer was white and the looter was black. That's certainly not ID'd in this thread.
Anyone who thinks vigilantism is preferred over our legal system.
Self defense is not vigilantism and WHAT LEGAL SYSTEM does one call in a riot situation?
The first line between you and the horde (the police) are going to be busy elsewhere if they are available at all. Usually citizens are left to fend for themselves in a riot situation, police are tasked with protecting higher value property and people than you.
That's the thing, there is no right to be safe or feel safe or to rely on any government employee to protect you . . . It is a longstanding legal principle that no government employee is duty bound or legally liable to provide for the personal security of any person*. The only entity responsible for your safety is YOU!
*The only exception is when government action has extinguished your ability to act on your own behalf (e.g., in some custodial situation).
As a U.K. citizen, I’ve not got a dog in this hunt, so my lips are zippered shut, but I have a very good friend in NYC, a black defence attorney who has his own practice.
Discussing it with him, he said that aside from being none too surprised at the Minneapolis death occurring, the one thing that he can see coming out of this is that cops, whether black, white, Hispanic or oriental, will begin noticeably dealing with African Americans with kid gloves, and that black would-be law breakers, will feel that they can push the envelope a tad further now, as cops will (maybe), be reticent to arrest them.
Rich pls give me your state and a link to the law for your last point.
I've been a law officer in two states (NYPD, retired lt., MA retired chief of police). I suggest you take a look at NY State Penal Law Article 35, Defense of Justification. It lays out the restrictions on the use of force (and when force is authorized) in a very clear and concise manner. Do keep in mind this is "black type law." That is, there are rulings that come out of court cases that will impact how such laws are viewed by the courts.
NY State Penal Law Article 35, Defense of Justificaiton:
For example, the use of deadly physical force is lawful (with caveats!!), as seen below:
(b) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing
or attempting to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible criminal
sexual act or robbery; or
(c) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing
or attempting to commit a burglary, and the circumstances are such that
the use of deadly physical force is authorized by subdivision three of
section 35.20.
I used to teach this stuff, many years ago, when I conducted the NYPD's Police Firearms Instructor School. I also wrote a book on the Use of Force in Modern Policing in which this subject was discussed.
how does one differentiate between physical force and deadly physical force? A slap to the face is just PF, but a well-trained martial arts blow to the neck is DPF?
When is the one suffering the attack allowed to decide between the 2?
Deadly Physical Force is that amount of force which may cause death or serious physical injury.
Physical Force is all other types/degree of force.
"When is the one suffering the attack allowed to decide between the 2?"
And here's the rub! The court decides. When does a shod foot to the head evolve from a physical force attack to a deadly physical force attack? I don't know the answer to that conundrum.
This is a very complex legal issue. Folks with a lot more education in the law then I have have been debating it for around the last couple of hundred years.
Rich
One last thought. When instructing people (citizens and sworn officers) in the use of force I'd leave them with this thought:
Think of danger as arrows (as from a bow and arrow). If the arrows (the danger/s) are heading in your direction, use whatever force is necessary to stop those arrows. If the arrows are heading away from you, refrain from using force.
Last edited by RichCapeCod; 05-30-2020 at 07:18 PM..
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