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Not necesarrily true. I can point out the difference between the disciples literal fire and God's (assume it was). Since there is a difference it's not the same:
1. The disciples wanted to simply destroy God's enemies. End of story as far as their intent.
But if it was actual fire Bob what was the difference between Elijah and John and the boys.
Both had the same intent, unless you believe Elijah understood God would raise them back up and John and the boys did not.
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2. God, even if He did literally destroy them physically is able to raise them again and bring them into His kingdom (e.g. Sodom Ezekiel 16). Therefore God's destruction of Sodom if literal is unlike the disciples destruction of Christ's enemies.
Again if it is literal and taking into account God would raise them back up, why than did Jesus say ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of?
Surely Jesus knew God would raise them back up.So Why was it ok for Elijah and not ok for John and the boys?
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It's the example I keep bringing up to you in various ways. God smiting Job and Satan smiting Job are the same event carried out with two different hearts/inents/additudes towards Job. Satan to ruin Job. God to try Job and have him come out like gold. Just because God and Satan intend upon Job identical circumstances does not mean that God and Satan are in harmony or are both evil.
Crucifixion of Christ. Intended by God, intended by Satan. Same event. Two purposes. One love. One hate. Same with Paul's thorn in the flesh.
Likewise God and the disciples. Same kind of event, different intents. God can make alive. Diciples can not. God intends to make alive. Disciples intended purely to wipe out.
Again if it was literal Elijah wiped them out the same as John and the boys wanted to and Jesus said ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
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I have had the same thought Scott. Problem is, I can look around the world and see actual literal events occuring that are evil. And if I'm honest with myself, I can not escape the implication. Either
1) God is unable to stop the evil we see from occuring (unscriptural)
2) God is choosing not to stop the evil we see from occuring.
And again, if I'm honest with myself, choosing not to stop evil that you can easily stop is no diff. then willing it to occur. e.g.
1) I drown someone
2) I see someone drowning and refuse to throw them a life preserver
I'm no diff. in either case. I have willed them to drown and take action/non-action (which is a kind of action really) to bring it to pass. Therefore, reading the OT evil coming from God as not having literally occurred does not wash God's hands of anything
I have tried to explain this to you before brother, it is because God's will is not being done in the earth, satans and mans will is the controlling force here.
Which leaves the question of than why does God than not just stop it all?
The reason is because man has freewill and God will not take away from man that which He gave them. I believe all the crap in this world because of what man is doing breaks His heart more than we can ever imagine, but God is a God of liberty, satan is the one who wants to bind, and if God takes away mans liberty He becomes no different than satan and His works than become the same works He wants destroyed.
Part of why you cannot see this brother is because you do not believe in mans freewill.
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I don't know. I don't see the whole human race idea but even if so, Jesus applied it to actual literal marriage and divorce so I would take it that way as well.
Ok explain Cain's wife if it is not in reference to the whole of humanity.
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Even if Genesis is describing literal creation (no I don't see it as 7 literal days even in that case) I also see it as spiritually prophetic. God is at work now, day of rest is future.
I think this is shown in Genesis 2....
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
What follows is the rest of scripture laying out that "day".
The disciples were exhibiting their carnal nature when they requested fire come down from heaven. They thought they would be doing God's bidding by requesting such - which is why Jesus responded that they didn't know what manner of spirit they were of - for theirs was not His.
Paul
So it was alright for Elijah and not them, I don't buy it.
You don't buy it but that is the FACTS. It is ALRIGHT for Elijah and NOT for them (disciples).
Paul
trettep so what you are saing id Elijah did it by the spirit of God and James and John who did not actually make the fire fall even though it was in their heart to , were of the wrong spirit ?.
But if it was actual fire Bob what was the difference between Elijah and John and the boys. Both had the same intent, unless you believe Elijah understood God would raise them back up and John and the boys did not.
I'm not sure I know Elijah's intent, but I agree if his intent were the same, his righteousness (lack thereof) would be the same. He would be no better than the disciples.
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Again if it is literal and taking into account God would raise them back up, why than did Jesus say ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of?
Becuase the disicples had no such good intent to raise them up. The intent was evil.
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Surely Jesus knew God would raise them back up.So Why was it ok for Elijah and not ok for John and the boys?
We can't judge the disciples or Elijah's intent from what Jesus knew, only from what the disciples or Elijah knew. If Elijah's intent = the disicple's intent then neither were righteous.
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I have tried to explain this to you before brother, it is because God's will is not being done in the earth, satans and mans will is the controlling force here.
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Which leaves the question of than why does God than not just stop it all?
The reason is because man has freewill and God will not take away from man that which He gave them. I believe all the crap in this world because of what man is doing breaks His heart more than we can ever imagine, but God is a God of liberty, satan is the one who wants to bind, and if God takes away mans liberty He becomes no different than satan and His works than become the same works He wants destroyed.
Part of why you cannot see this brother is because you do not believe in mans freewill.
Sorry Scott but that does not stand up to the smallest amount of scrutiny.
1. God could easly stop them without taking away their supposed free will and God did so throughout scriptures. For example, God freed the disciples from prison against the will of those who imprisoned them without taking away anyone's suppose free will. God simply thwarted their plans by sending an angel to open the jail. Another example. Christ could have called down angels to thwart the plans of those who wanted to crucify him.
2. God also forcibly violates what people want to do throughout scripture. For example, God forcibly took away Neb.'s kingdom because he refused to deal justly with his people. God forcibly sent Israel into captivity. Both examples, against their wills.
3. A pedophile free wills to rape a young child. The child free wills not to be raped. Why would God choose to honor the free will of the rapist but not the child? Why doesn't God send the equivalent of a big fish to swallow up the rapist and save the child? Surely Jonah did not desire to be swallowed by a fish.
4. Not all evil is "free willed" by man. e.g. natural disasters
All you're doing is giving a supposed reason or excuse for God choosing for evil to occur. The reason you're giving is free will. I also believe there is a reason, but a different reason.
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Ok explain Cain's wife if it is not in reference to the whole of humanity
I'm not aware of the "whole of humanity" idea you are referring to or how it relates to Cain so I don't know how to answer that. Also, I didn't mean what you are referring to is not true (I don't even understnad what you are referring to) I meant that even if it is true then still I would see the "two shall become one flesh" as a reference to marriage since that is what Christ related it to.
trettep so what you are saing id Elijah did it by the spirit of God and James and John who did not actually make the fire fall even though it was in their heart to , were of the wrong spirit ?.
Yes, pcamps. The disciples were of the wrong spirit in asking for the fire to come down from Heaven.
By that anology it is alright to kill in the name of Jesus, but its not alright to kill by yourself.
Pneuma, think about the question you asked. You asked why it alright for one and not the other and then you say you don't buy it. What don't you buy? The fact remains that it was alright for Elijah to bring fire down from heaven and it was not alright for the disciples to. Is that not the fact? If not then why not?
Yes, pcamps. The disciples were of the wrong spirit in asking for the fire to come down from Heaven.
Paul
trettep i do not mean to be rude but that part of my question is obvious considering Jesus rebuked them . What about Elijah was he in the right spirit when he called fire down from heaven ?.
trettep i do not mean to be rude but that part of my question is obvious considering Jesus rebuked them . What about Elijah was he in the right spirit when he called fire down from heaven ?.
How do we know Elijah's full intent?
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