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LOL Bob I did not really mean anything by it, it is just the way I expressed myself.
But I think I understand what you thought I was speaking of and although this scripture we are speaking about would seem to back that way of thinking up I see to many other scriptures that do not line up with that way of thinking.
Are we on the same wave link here brother?
I'm not sure if we're on the same wave scott, that's why I asked you to clarify. I do believe Elijah is a type showing spiritual fire and not literal fire. Yet I do also believe (tentatively) that Elijah literally destroyed his enemies with fire. So I was asking you to spell out the contradiction in that thinking since you said that can not be.
Also I asked (in an edit of my post, so you prob. didnt see it) if you believe that God literally destroyed most of mankind in the flood. Or for that matter did God lit. destroy Sodom & Gom.
That NOT what I said or implied at all brother, I even said your missing the point, camps and I were not looking for a type we were asking why was it okay for Elijah an not John and the boys.
I think there was confusion of what we were asking and what you were saying , for the one did not answer the other.
I disagree with that because God does not change His ways, and I don't believe it was ok for OT people to do what they did and all of a sudden it is not ok.
As to the type you gave forth I don't really have a problem with that.
I don't get where you perceive that I said that God changes His ways. God does not change His way. The scriptures show Pneuma that God uses the earthly to understand the heavenly. You are the one that implies that something symbolic cannot actually take place. And I replied to the contrary.
The whole creation is symbolic to that which is Heavenly.
I disagree with that because God does not change His ways, and I don't believe it was ok for OT people to do what they did and all of a sudden it is not ok.
Ok, that's the contradiction I thought you were referring to. Yes, I see that contradction (supposed) but I'm not as convinced of it as you are. But yes, I do grapple with it.
God does not change His ways in some sense yes. Yet God gives an OC and a NC. Are those the same? God does not change in that all that He does is good. But does God not change in any detail? Moses gave a rule of divorce that was different from God's original ideal (two shall become one flesh) because of the hardness of their heart. Was God changing His way there? One law for the righteous (two become one flesh) and another law for the unrighteous (bill of divorce).
1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers.
Can God give different law to the righteous from the unrighteous without changing His way? Maybe, because God is dealing with two totally different people. It's not God that is different, it's who God is dealing with that's different. If thelaw was not made for a righteous man, should I not expect the law made for the righteous man to differ?.
I'm not sure if we're on the same wave scott, that's why I asked you to clarify.
Nope we are not I thought you were hinting at something else.
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I do believe Elijah a type showing spiritual fire and not literal fire. Yet I do also believe (tentatively) that Elijah literally destroyed his enemies with fire. So I was asking you to spell out the contradiction in that thinking since you said that can not be.
The contradiction is that if it is actual fire that consumed them than Jesus would not have told His disciples that they knew not what manner of spirit they were of because God approved of the event in the OT, that would make what God says is ok and Jesus says is not ok.
I don't believe it was actual fire brother I believe it was actually speaking of God's Holy fire and it consumed the prophet of Baal after the same manner His Holy fire consumes us.
But John and the boys thought it was actual fire and that is why Jesus said ye know not what manner of spirit you are of.
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Also I asked (in an edit of my post, so you prob. didnt see it) if you believe that God literally destroyed most of mankind in the flood.
Not to long ago I would not have hesitated to say yes it was literal, but I really don't know for sure anymore. To me it would go against Gods loving nature and the view that Jesus put forth of the Father. And Jesus seems to indicate just that in the scripture under discussion right now, to see these things as happening literally is not to know what manner of spirit ye are of.
Let me ask you a couple of questions brother, is Adam and Eve speaking of two people or is it really speaking of the whole human race?
Is God creation weak really just 7 literal days or is it telling us the day we are living in right now?
Myself I don't see it as 7 literal days, I believe 5 days are past and we are living in the end of the 6th day and coming soon to the 7th when God will rest from all His labour.
I don't get where you perceive that I said that God changes His ways. God does not change His way. The scriptures show Pneuma that God uses the earthly to understand the heavenly. You are the one that implies that something symbolic cannot actually take place. And I replied to the contrary.
The whole creation is symbolic to that which is Heavenly.
Paul
Because what you say is typeology is not typeology Elijah did not call actual fire down from Heaven.
Ok, that's the contradiction I thought you were referring to. Yes, I see that contradction (supposed) but I'm not as convinced of it as you are. But yes, I do grapple with it.
At least you do not just say that is nuts because many do and many will
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God does not change His ways in some sense yes. Yet God gives an OC and a NC. Are those the same? God does not change in that all that He does is good. But does God not change in any detail? Moses gave a rule of divorce that was different from God's original ideal (two shall become one flesh) because of the hardness of their heart. Was God changing His way there? One law for the righteous (two become one flesh) and another law for the unrighteous (bill of divorce).
God did NOT change the law brother Moses did.
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1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers.
Can God give different law to the righteous from the unrighteous without changing His way?
He didn't they are the same laws
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Maybe, because God is dealing with two totally different people. It's not God that is different, it's who God is dealing with that's different. If thelaw was not made for a righteous man, should I not expect the law made for the righteous man to differ?.
brother is it is the same law, but how one apprehends the law makes it different. The unrighteous man sees the letter, the righteous man has it written in his heart.
Because what you say is typeology is not typeology Elijah did not call actual fire down from Heaven.
Read my post to Bod for a further explination.
I believe that Elijah did actually call actual fire down from Heaven. I believe it was a miraculous event but it represents something sigifnicantly more from a spiritual perspective.
The contradiction is that if it is actual fire that consumed them than Jesus would not have told His disciples that they knew not what manner of spirit they were of because God approved of the event in the OT, that would make what God says is ok and Jesus says is not ok.
Not necesarrily true. I can point out the difference between the disciples literal fire and God's (assume it was). Since there is a difference it's not the same:
1. The disciples wanted to simply destroy God's enemies. End of story as far as their intent.
2. God, even if He did literally destroy them physically is able to raise them again and bring them into His kingdom (e.g. Sodom Ezekiel 16). Therefore God's destruction of Sodom if literal is unlike the disciples destruction of Christ's enemies.
It's the example I keep bringing up to you in various ways. God smiting Job and Satan smiting Job are the same event carried out with two different hearts/inents/additudes towards Job. Satan to ruin Job. God to try Job and have him come out like gold. Just because God and Satan intend upon Job identical circumstances does not mean that God and Satan are in harmony or are both evil.
Crucifixion of Christ. Intended by God, intended by Satan. Same event. Two purposes. One love. One hate. Same with Paul's thorn in the flesh.
Likewise God and the disciples. Same kind of event, different intents. God can make alive. Diciples can not. God intends to make alive. Disciples intended purely to wipe out.
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I don't believe it was actual fire brother I believe it was actually speaking of God's Holy fire and it consumed the prophet of Baal after the same manner His Holy fire consumes us.
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But John and the boys thought it was actual fire and that is why Jesus said ye know not what manner of spirit you are of.
Not to long ago I would not have hesitated to say yes it was literal, but I really don't know for sure anymore. To me it would go against Gods loving nature and the view that Jesus put forth of the Father. And Jesus seems to indicate just that in the scripture under discussion right now, to see these things as happening literally is not to know what manner of spirit ye are of.
I have had the same thought Scott. Problem is, I can look around the world and see actual literal events occuring that are evil. And if I'm honest with myself, I can not escape the implication. Either
1) God is unable to stop the evil we see from occuring (unscriptural)
2) God is choosing not to stop the evil we see from occuring.
And again, if I'm honest with myself, choosing not to stop evil that you can easily stop is no diff. then willing it to occur. e.g.
1) I drown someone
2) I see someone drowning and refuse to throw them a life preserver
I'm no diff. in either case. I have willed them to drown and take action/non-action (which is a kind of action really) to bring it to pass. Therefore, reading the OT evil coming from God as not having literally occurred does not wash God's hands of anything.
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Let me ask you a couple of questions brother, is Adam and Eve speaking of two people or is it really speaking of the whole human race?
I don't know. I don't see the whole human race idea but even if so, Jesus applied it to actual literal marriage and divorce so I would take it that way as well.
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Is God creation weak really just 7 literal days or is it telling us the day we are living in right now?
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Myself I don't see it as 7 literal days, I believe 5 days are past and we are living in the end of the 6th day and coming soon to the 7th when God will rest from all His labour.
Even if Genesis is describing literal creation (no I don't see it as 7 literal days even in that case) I also see it as spiritually prophetic. God is at work now, day of rest is future.
I think this is shown in Genesis 2....
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
What follows is the rest of scripture laying out that "day".
I believe that Elijah did actually call actual fire down from Heaven. I believe it was a miraculous event but it represents something sigifnicantly more from a spiritual perspective.
Paul
Paul you are free to believe as you will, but your typology does not work for me because you are not taking into account all that is said.
And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Point 1 if it was actual fire Jesus is saying Elijah did it by another spirit for he knew not what manner of spirit he was of.
Point 2 John and the boys said EVEN AS ELIJAH DID. So after the typology if it was referring to a spiritual lesson that Elijah is showing forth the baptism of fire, Jesus still said ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. Which would indicate than that baptism in fire is not of the Spirit of God.
What you do in your typology is omit the words of Jesus "ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of" and for typology to work the whole has to be taken into account and not just part of it.
Paul you are free to believe as you will, but your typology does not work for me because you are not taking into account all that is said.
And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Point 1 if it was actual fire Jesus is saying Elijah did it by another spirit for he knew not what manner of spirit he was of.
Point 2 John and the boys said EVEN AS ELIJAH DID. So after the typology if it was referring to a spiritual lesson that Elijah is showing forth the baptism of fire, Jesus still said ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. Which would indicate than that baptism in fire is not of the Spirit of God.
What you do in your typology is omit the words of Jesus "ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of" and for typology to work the whole has to be taken into account and not just part of it.
The disciples were exhibiting their carnal nature when they requested fire come down from heaven. They thought they would be doing God's bidding by requesting such - which is why Jesus responded that they didn't know what manner of spirit they were of - for theirs was not His.
Paul
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