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I never implied anyone was perfect. And I never implied that we didn't need grace or faith. My question to Mike555 was his view on grace and faith alone to be saved. I never intended to imply anything else.
I believe this is true. Ever since I fully committed myself to Him and not this world, my life has been sin-less. Not sinless, but less sin. Even if I haven't sinned, I still repent. My flesh still has the desires of this world and the world often tempts me with my past indulgences. But through a faithful prayer life and daily repentance, I have not given myself over to the desires of the flesh and sin has become foreign to me. I'm not perfect, by any means! I need to work harder on my fruits of the spirit!
Sorry if you think I was implying you thought someone could be perfect. It was just a rhetorical statement. I'm sure you know only Jesus was perfect. Anyway glad to see you are growing in Grace and your wisdom proves it. More Grace to you for investing what you do have.
I specifically stated that I do not believe in doing works to be eternally saved.
Over and over I have explained that the dead faith of which James spoke was not a non existent faith, but a non-productive faith which results in a non-productive spiritual life. It has nothing to do with eternal salvation. It has to do the quality of the believer's spiritual life.
James is talking about being a doer of the word instead of just being a hearer of the word. He is talking about having a productive spiritual life as opposed to a non-productive spiritual life. But the non-productive believer is still eternally saved.
As for whether I believe sin can cause a believer to lose his salvation, you will have to read my prior posts. But since you said on another post that you don't have to read my prior posts you will never know.
As for the personal question, it's none of your business.
Okay, after posting this I noticed your new post - #248, in which you said you did read my post. So to answer your question, sin cannot cause a believer to lose his salvation. Christ paid for every sin the believer will ever commit. The believer will be disciplined for sin, but he cannot lose his salvation.
In regards to not losing salvation... How is one disciplined for sin if they are a believer? And if they are a believer and have sinned according to Gal 5:19-20 what is the consequence? I only ask because there is only one consequence given. And it says "anyone" instead of unbelievers vs. believers.
Give me your opinion on these scriptures...
1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
Now take that example, of not knowing Him, and not living the life as Jesus did (by the law) and compare it to this scripture. What is your opinion?
Matt 7:2121 “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. 22 On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ 23 But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’ 24 “Anyone who listens to my teaching and follows it is wise, like a person who builds a house on solid rock.
Verse 21 says only the person who does the will of the Father can enter. And the "will" is the law, God's commandments. Verse 22 says they cast out demons in His name. In order to cast out a demon you have to have faith in Him and believe in Him to cast out that demon. Same goes for prophesying and miracles. One cannot do these things unless they are a believer, full of faith in Him. I've never known a human to be a miracle worker. Our body is just the vessel that the Lord uses, it's through His Name and by His Spirit that causes the miracles to happen. These believers found out on judgment day that they did not obey God's laws. They were sinners and could not enter. Whoopsies. (LOL )
Just as He says depart from me in the scripture above, He says it again in Luke 13:17 while speaking to those who do iniquity. I'd like your opinion about how this also ties in.
(iniquity - the condition of without law; because ignorant of it, because of violating it)
Luke 13:22 And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
I could probably add a few more scriptures, but I think I have plenty for now to get the ball rolling on your point of view. I really am trying to understand how you believe. In order to do that I have to use scriptures to ask these questions. I'd just like your opinion on them. To me, I see it as those who "believed" yet they did not live according to the law/commands, which I refer to as the Word of God, therefore, they were sinners and sin could not enter in. What is your opinion on how you think these scriptures relate?
God has both conditional and non-conditional promises. There are no conditions attached to the believer's eternal security. One such unconditional promise is that since the believer has died with Christ he will live with Christ.
As for God taking the priesthood from the line of Ithamar, a requirement of the priesthood was to be holy to God and not to profane the name of God, as stated in Leviticus 21:6. Ely's sons did not obey that command and Ely did not nothing about it and so God removed the priesthood.
As for Nineveh, the whole point of God sending Jonah there was to give Nineveh a chance to repent and therefore not be destroyed. As stated in Jeremiah 18:7-10 regarding God's actions against a nation,
Jer. 18:7 "At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8] if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9] "Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10] if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. 11] "So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, 'Thus says the LORD, "Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds."'
In Jonah 3:10 it is seen that the people of Nineveh did turn from their ways and therefore God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them.
The Bible is truthful in all that it says.
1 Sam. 2:30 Therefore the Lord, the God of Israel, declares: ‘I promised that your house and the house of your father should go in and out before me forever,’ but now the Lord declares: ‘Far be it from me, for those who honor me I will honor, and those who despise me shall be lightly esteemed.
Exodus 29:8 Then you shall bring his sons and put coats on them, 9 and you shall gird Aaron and his sons with sashes and bind caps on them. And the priesthood shall be theirs by a statuteforever. Thus you shall ordain Aaron and his sons.
Numbers 25:6 And behold, one of the people of Israel came and brought a Midianite woman to his family, in the sight of Moses and in the sight of the whole congregation of the people of Israel, while they were weeping in the entrance of the tent of meeting. 7 When Phinehas the son of Eleazar, son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose and left the congregation and took a spear in his hand 8 and went after the man of Israel into the chamber and pierced both of them, the man of Israel and the woman through her belly. Thus the plague on the people of Israel was stopped.....
10 And the Lord said to Moses, 11 “Phinehas the son of Eleazar, son of Aaron the priest, has turned back my wrath from the people of Israel, in that he was jealous with my jealousy among them, so that I did not consume the people of Israel in my jealousy. 12 Therefore say, ‘Behold, I give to him my covenant of peace, 13 and it shall be to him and to his descendants after him the covenant of a perpetual priesthood, because he was jealous for his God and made atonement for the people of Israel.’”
So, you see multiple instances where God gives Aaron's descendants perpetual (eternal) priesthood without ANY conditions, but then rescinds the priesthood in 1 Sam 2:30. So, when you say that eternal security has no conditions you have not proven that is the case. At best, your answer could be that you can't know. God can rescind someone's salvation by applying a condition not explicitly stated in the original salvation passage, similar to the Aaronic priesthood being rescinded.
The verse in Jeremiah that you quoted could just as easily be used to renege on someone's salvation. Pure and simple.
Oh, and no, Bible cannot be trusted. For example, God never answers prayers, that's why all people typically pray open ended prayers or ask God to do something that is actually possible. So, you never hear people ask God to teleport them to Africa for a mission's trip. Instead, they ask God to help in providing funds for a plane ticket.
Can you answer the question please? If Jesus can take away your salvation it is important to know how it happens, especially when you have said that once you lose it, you can't get it back. Your "produce or perish" friend said that even a feeling of envy can cause it to happen. Do you agree with that?
How?
Pastor augiedogie spoke to this in post #37
Quote:
Originally Posted by augiedogie
. But people do change their minds. They do decide they'd rather chase money or fame, they'd rather be popular and follow the ways of the world. If that happens, then they can lose their salvation because they no longer love God above all things. Instead, now they have made money or something else their god. They have fallen back into idolatry, and have walked away from God of their own free will. God did not force them. His offer of forgiveness is always there, but some refuse to repent and so they are lost. Ezekiel 33:11-19 explains this all very well.
Which Jesus said in Luke 8:14, Mark 4:19, Matthew 13:22
Also God did find it important to have it also found in:
Hebrews 10:26-27 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Is it possible that once you lose it, you can't get it back?
God teaches yes, that is possible.
Matthew 5:13 You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
Hebrews 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.
According to that comment, you could lose your salvation during a moment of weakness. Even believers are human, and can (and will) stray from the path, and the problem with your view is that when that happens, you lose your salvation, and can't get it back. Augiedogie seems to think you can get it back (Acts 20:30 maybe?), which would mean you are saved, then unsaved, and then saved again etc a cycle or saving and unsaving. The Bible teaches that a saved person is transformed into a new creature (the old creature is gone), but according to you a person can lose his/her salvation, and then I guess the old creature is re-generated through an un-saving process.
I understand that you believe that once you lose it, it is gone forever, so mistakes made in a moments of weakness could result in permanent loss of salvation, even if that person had trusted Christ for eternal life.
According to that comment, you could lose your salvation during a moment of weakness. Even believers are human, and can (and will) stray from the path, and the problem with your view is that when that happens, you lose your salvation, and can't get it back. Augiedogie seems to think you can get it back (Acts 20:30 maybe?), which would mean you are saved, then unsaved, and then saved again etc a cycle or saving and unsaving. The Bible teaches that a saved person is transformed into a new creature (the old creature is gone), but according to you a person can lose his/her salvation, and then I guess the old creature is re-generated through an un-saving process.
I understand that you believe that once you lose it, it is gone forever, so mistakes made in a moments of weakness could result in permanent loss of salvation, even if that person had trusted Christ for eternal life.
Or another way to understand it is to not attempt to use human reason by seeing it no other way than "during a moment of weakness. Even believers are human, and can (and will) stray from the path, and the problem with your view is that when that happens, you lose your salvation, and can't get it back...which would mean you are saved, then unsaved, and then saved again etc a cycle or saving and unsaving " .
I only addressed the specific question you were asking, which was "how it happens" not to the greater aspect of your inability or refusal to recognize that God teaches in scriptures that both are true ... which OSAS theology scoffs at or rejects.
Hebrews 10:26-27 Matthew 5:13 Hebrews 6:4-6 Ezekiel 33:11-19 John 15:4-8 Luke 8:15
are just as equally true and applicable.
Reform those verses into a forced theology or reject them outright and you'll have the platform of OSAS.
Finn,
I've noticed that every time that I had to be blunt about the unscriptural teaching concerning OSAS theology, you've attempted to move the focus to certain scenarios like "moments of weakness". I don't know if that's a purposeful maneuver you're doing in the attempt to validate OSAS but I'm not going to chase every rabbit hole you happen to throw out there.
Take Mike's comment about still being saved despite someone becoming legalistic ... it is that sort of defensive of OSAS that makes OSAS theology wrong. (almost satanically wrong)
I have better things to do than to repeatedly quote Jesus' words and other scriptures that are just as true like Luke 8:15, John 15:4-9 and subsequent warnings found in scriptures to you & Mike.
The more to attempt to defend OSAS, the more I see just how reliant on human reasoning needs it to be for not letting two truths stand as separate truths which defy human reason.
My simple ending reply is .... if God said it, it must be true.
Luke 8:15 the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop."
John 15:4-8 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned
John 15:9
“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Nowremain in my love."
No . . . but they can face some very unpleasant consequences based on reaping what they sow.
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LOL
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Can TRUE Christians Lose Their Salvation?
