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" the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by perseveringproduce a crop."
OSAS' advocates response .... read the above.
Jesus' reply:
"Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me?" John 8:46
"If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.” Mark 3:38
Mark 8:38 is what adamant OSAS advocates should pay special attention to, because God said anybody who offers a different gospel plan (Galatians 1:8-9) to those who do not remain in him (John 15:4-9) to the very end (Hebrews 3:14; Hebrews 6:11) will be cursed, in other words damned. (Galatians 1:8-9)
Legalists offer a different view, and Galatians says such people have fallen from grace, and according to your personal view falling from grace equates to loss of salvation. Luckily you are wrong about that part.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 02-09-2014 at 05:55 PM..
Legalists offer a different view, and Galatians says such people have fallen from grace, and according to your personal view falling from grace equates to loss of salvation. Luckily you are wrong about that part.
Then prove Jesus wrong and attempt to offer a different gospel plan to those who reject Him or to those who do not remain in him.
You'll see just who is wrong when somebody who has forfeited their faith counts on OSAS's promise.
those who do not remain in him (John 15:4-9)
Jesus said: If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
those who do remain (John 15:7)
If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
to the very end (Hebrews 3:14; Hebrews 6:11)
We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.
We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized.
As God said:
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
God does not say:
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, you're still OSAS.
Last edited by twin.spin; 02-09-2014 at 06:35 PM..
Twin.spin, the different gospel of which Paul spoke was the gospel which makes works a requirement for salvation in contrast to the gospel of salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ alone which Paul and the other apostles taught. As shown in Acts 15 the Judaizers were teaching that you had to be circumcised according to the custom of Moses in order to be saved. It was this false teaching to which Paul referred in Galatians 5 and with reference to which he meant that if the Galatians accepted circumcision they would be falling from grace by going into the Mosaic Law system. They would be rejecting the grace teaching they had learned in favor of legalism. Falling from grace is not falling away from one's eternal salvation but is rejecting grace for legalism.
As Peter said at the council at Jerusalem, and at which the apostle Paul was present when Peter said it,
Acts 15:11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."
Peter was speaking on behalf of the other apostles and the elders and the whole church at Jerusalem.
The gospel of grace to which the apostles held rejects works as a means of salvation. Since man cannot earn eternal life by his works, neither can he maintain his salvation by anything that he does, and therefore cannot lose his salvation by anything that he does.
Jesus Himself after stating that eternal life is not by works, but through faith in Him (John 6:27-29) then said that everyone who believes on Him will have eternal life (John 6:37-40).
Once having believed on Christ and having been given eternal life, the believer who becomes faithless cannot lose his salvation as 2 Tim. 2:11-13 states.
Every believer has died with Christ and will therefore live with Christ as per 2 Tim. 2:11.
The believer who endures in his spiritual life on this earth will rule with Christ as per verse 12, while the believer who denies Christ and is faithless will be denied rulership privileges.
If the believer is faithless, he cannot lose his salvation because Christ remains faithful since He cannot deny Himself (verse 13). Every believer is a part of the body of Christ and is eternally secure.
Mike,
Galatians 1:8-9 is not a limited application .... Universalism is one such alternative gospel plan that would carry the same sentence to those who preach such.
Mike,
Galatians 1:8-9 is not a limited application .... Universalism is one such alternative gospel plan that would carry the same sentence to those who preach such.
The issue is that once a person has received Christ as Savior, which not everyone is going to do, he has been given eternal life and cannot lose it because he can do nothing to either earn it or to keep it. If our eternal salvation depended on us, if we could do anything to earn it, then Jesus never would have had to go to the Cross.
Both Jesus and Paul taught that the believer is eternally secure.
Furthermore, a believer who at one time simply trusted in Christ alone for his salvation, but then got sucked into legalism was, and still is eternally saved. It is only the person who never at any time simply believed on Christ, but has always tried to earn his salvation that was never saved in the first place. Eternal life is offered only as a free gift. It cannot be worked for. Once a person has been given eternal life because he recognized that he could do nothing for it and that he must trust in Jesus, he can never lose that eternal life. That is GRACE.
Then prove Jesus wrong and attempt to offer a different gospel plan to those who reject Him or to those who do not remain in him.
You'll see just who is wrong when somebody who has forfeited their faith counts on OSAS's promise.
those who do not remain in him (John 15:4-9)
Jesus said: If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
those who do remain (John 15:7)
If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
to the very end (Hebrews 3:14; Hebrews 6:11)
We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.
We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized.
As God said:
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
God does not say:
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, you're still OSAS.
Jesus is not wrong, your understanding of His words is wrong.
You keep talking about abiding/remaining in Christ. This is how you do it: “Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.” (1 John 4:15)
The issue is that once a person has received Christ as Savior, which not everyone is going to do, he has been given eternal life and cannot lose it because he can do nothing to either earn it or to keep it. If our eternal salvation depended on us, if we could do anything to earn it, then Jesus never would have had to go to the Cross.
Both Jesus and Paul taught that the believer is eternally secure.
Nice that you used the word "received", because God also taught:
"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."
God does not say:
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, you're still OSAS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Furthermore, a believer who at one time simply trusted in Christ alone for his salvation, but then got sucked into legalism was, and still is eternally saved. It is only the person who never at any time simply believed on Christ, but has always tried to earn his salvation that was never saved in the first place. ...
Acts 20:30 ... pure and simple.
Last edited by twin.spin; 02-09-2014 at 10:19 PM..
Jesus is not wrong, your understanding of His words is wrong.
You keep talking about abiding/remaining in Christ. This is how you do it: “Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.” (1 John 4:15)
I keep talking about it simply because Jesus also did:
(John 15:4-9) If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
(Luke 8:15) the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop."
(Hebrews 3:14) We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.
(Hebrews 6:11) We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized.
I have no wrong misunderstanding ... OSAS is the scoffing of Jesus' words is what is wrong.
And it's for no other reason other than Acts 20:30 is why you have no other recourse other than to accuse Jesus of being a legalist.
Last edited by twin.spin; 02-09-2014 at 10:59 PM..
WARNING! I'M ABOUT TO RUFFLE SOME FEATHERS! THAT IS NOT MY INTENTION!
Can we just put this OSAS business to rest??? Do the OSAS people believe the Word IS God? If so, do they also know that God cannot lie? And do they know God's Word WILL NOT contradict itself?? If the OSAS people DON'T believe in any of that, I can definitely see it from their point of view now. Because if they don't believe in the infallible Word of God then scriptures WILL contradict themselves and you can make any scripture mean whatever you want it to. In which case, the OSAS people will find a way to contradict the below scripture and post the normal OSAS scriptures they always do...
Gal 5:7 You were running the race so well. Who has held you back from following the truth? 8 It certainly isn’t God, for he is the one who called you to freedom. 9 This false teaching is like a little yeast that spreads through the whole batch of dough! 10 I am trusting the Lord to keep you from believing false teachings. God will judge that person, whoever he is, who has been confusing you. ... 13 For you have been called to live in freedom, my brothers and sisters. But don’t use your freedom to satisfy your sinful nature. Instead, use your freedom to serve one another in love. ... 17 The sinful nature wants to do evil, which is just the opposite of what the Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are the opposite of what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, so you are not free to carry out your good intentions.
Gal 5:19-21
KJV says it like this:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
NLT says it like this: 19 When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Works - business, employment, that which any one is occupied, that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
Manifest - apparent, manifest, evident, known i.e to be plainly recognised or known
Let's break it down...
Adultery
• adultery
Fornication
• illicit sexual intercourse
o adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
o sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
o sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman
• metaph. the worship of idols
o of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols
Uncleanness
• uncleanness
o physical
o in a moral sense: the impurity of lustful, luxurious, Cliving
o of the formal sacrificial feats held in honour of false gods
o of avarice, as a worship of Mammon
• in the plural, the vices springing from idolatry and peculiar to it
Witchcraft
• the use or the administering of drugs
• poisoning
• sorcery, magical arts, often found in connection with idolatry and fostered by it
• metaph. the deceptions and seductions of idolatry
Hatred
• enmity
o the state or feeling of being actively opposed or hostile to someone or something
• cause of enmity
Variance
• contention, strife, wrangling
Emulations
• excitement of mind, ardour, fervour of spirit
o zeal, ardour in embracing, pursuing, defending anything
- zeal in behalf of, for a person or thing
- the fierceness of indignation, punitive zeal
o an envious and contentious rivalry, jealousy
Wrath
• passion, angry, heat, anger forthwith boiling up and soon subsiding again
• glow, ardour, the wine of passion, inflaming wine (which either drives the drinker mad or kills him with its strength)
Strife
• contention
• partisanship, fractiousness
Seditions
• dissension, division
Heresies
• act of taking, capture: e.g. storming a city
• choosing, choice
• that which is chosen
• a body of men following their own tenets (sect or party)
• of the Sadducees
• of the Pharisees
• of the Christians
• dissensions arising from diversity of opinions and aims
The scripture says, "such like", if you do anything in resemblance, similar or pertaining to ANY ONE of these you will not inherit the kingdom of God. Again... If it makes ANY CONNECTION at all to these listed things the Bible says "nay nay". LOL.
SIN CAN'T ENTER INTO HEAVEN!!! OSAS DOES NOT FIT THAT DESCRIPTION!!!
Think about the things you watch on tv. What do you see in tv shows and movies? Anything that pertains to the scripture? ALL of them actually. 98% of the things you see on tv have adultery, homosexuality, drugs, alcohol, lust, drama, idolatry, should I keep going?? We should NOT put that negativity into our body. The things of the flesh do not mix with the Spirit. They are complete opposites. You may say, "watching a little drama on tv is NOT bad, are you crazy? That won't keep me from heaven". Are you sure about that??? Drama is connected, similar, pertains to - strife, variance, emulations, wrath, hatred - pick one! You are affected by it. You're bringing that negativity into your body. Not to mention that certain scenes could cause one to falter. For example, watching an intimate scene could cause lust.
Music... shall we even go there? IDOLATRY!! You may not see the connection, but if you REALLY use your noggin, you will see it. I could write a whole book about secular music and idolatry. It's unreal how our society is so numb to it. They don't even see how it has poisoned their soul. Nonetheless, if it doesn't edify or give honor to God, turn it off.
Do you think it's appropriate for a married person to flirt with someone other than their spouse? There's no such thing as "innocent flirting". For you to have entertained the idea of flirting, you would first have to have the emotion that triggers it. And that my friend, is connected to lasciviousness.
I could go on and on and on. I think the key to understanding this is... You can't be OSAS because we are flesh, we are going to sin. But we are so thankful that God robed Himself in flesh and walked this earth to die on a cross for our sins. Now we are free to come to Him any time we want and repent daily instead of offering up sacrifices once a year at Passover. He sacrificed Himself for us so that we might be saved. Jesus is our sacrifice. That is how we are able to go through Him to reach the throne room of God to ask for forgiveness EVERY SINGLE DAY!
Make no excuses for yourself... You CANNOT rely on your faith alone to make heaven your home. It contradicts what is said in Galatians 5.
I keep talking about it simply because Jesus also did:
(John 15:4-9) If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
(Luke 8:15) the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop."
(Hebrews 3:14) We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.
(Hebrews 6:11) We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized.
I have no wrong misunderstanding ... OSAS is the scoffing of Jesus' words is what is wrong.
And it's for no other reason other than Acts 20:30 is why you have no other recourse other than to accuse Jesus of being a legalist.
This is how you abide in Him: “Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.” (1 John 4:15)
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 02-10-2014 at 06:35 AM..
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