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The believer's position in the top circle is permanent. He can never get out of it. But he goes out of the bottom circle when he sins, and reenters the bottom circle when he simply names the sin to God as per 1 John 1:9. Abiding in Christ refers to the bottom circle. Not to the top circle. This is a diagram which is a teaching aid to illustrate the principle.
The believer's salvation is based on God's perfect character. Not on the believer's character. Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ Jesus. The believer cannot do anything to lose it. I hope that you will make an effort to try and understand this.
Your positional salvation is correct . . . but has nothing to do with what we claim to believe. It happened when Christ died and was reborn as Spirit (Comforter). We have nothing to do with it. Our sanctification is a process of attuning our Spirits under grace to Christ's love for us all through "love of god and each other" daily and repenting when we don't. The Holy Spirit (Comforter) guides us to what God has "written in our hearts."
Your positional salvation is correct . . . but has nothing to do with what we claim to believe. It happened when Christ died and was reborn as Spirit (Comforter). We have nothing to do with it. Our sanctification is a process of attuning our Spirits under grace to Christ's love for us all through "love of god and each other" daily and repenting when we don't. The Holy Spirit (Comforter) guides us to what God has "written in our hearts."
Your continued claims that one does not have to believe on Jesus to receive the gift of eternal life is flatly refuted by the Bible. And you know that. Yet you insist on denying it. Faith in Christ is the means by which a person takes possession of the gift of eternal life. Your claim is not Biblical.
And sanctification has both a positional and an experiential aspect. Every believer is positionally sanctified the moment he places his faith in Christ. But experiential sanctification is the process of spiritual growth which most believers in Christ do not attain.
Your continued claims that one does not have to believe on Jesus to receive the gift of eternal life is flatly refuted by the Bible. And you know that. Yet you insist on denying it. Faith in Christ is the means by which a person takes possession of the gift of eternal life. Your claim is not Biblical.
And sanctification has both a positional and an experiential aspect. Every believer is positionally sanctified the moment he places his faith in Christ. But experiential sanctification is the process of spiritual growth which most believers in Christ do not attain.
But as I have also "continually claimed" what is referred to as "believe ON" (pisteuo eis) Jesus has nothing to do with "believing IN" the myriad beliefs ABOUT Jesus that abound in the Christian religions. The faith you refer to is Christ's . . . not ours. When we "believe ON" Jesus we have faith that His faith and Spirit achieved what we could not. He was our "designated hitter."
We have nothing to do with our salvation . . . ONLY our sanctification. That is the Good News.
Apostle Paul said, and you quoted him. I didn't take it as an accusation, and neither should you.
Not at all, because He did not say you should serve Him to earn salvation, or because He would unsave you in your moments of weakness. People become legalists when they serve with the wrong motivation.
Finn,
I've noticed that every time that I had to be blunt about the unscriptural teaching concerning OSAS theology, you've attempted to move the focus to certain scenarios like "moments of weakness". I don't know if that's a purposeful maneuver you're doing in the attempt to validate OSAS but I'm not going to chase every rabbit hole you happen to throw out there.
Take Mike's comment about still being saved despite someone becoming legalistic ... it is that sort of defensive of OSAS that makes OSAS theology wrong. (almost satanically wrong)
I have better things to do than to repeatedly quote Jesus' words and other scriptures that are just as true like Luke 8:15, John 15:4-9 and subsequent warnings found in scriptures to you & Mike.
The more to attempt to defend OSAS, the more I see just how reliant on human reasoning needs it to be for not letting two truths stand as separate truths which defy human reason.
My simple ending reply is .... if God said it, it must be true.
Luke 8:15 the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop."
John 15:4-8 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned
John 15:9
“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Nowremain in my love."
Finn,
I've noticed that every time that I had to be blunt about the unscriptural teaching concerning OSAS theology, you've attempted to move the focus to certain scenarios like "moments of weakness". I don't know if that's a purposeful maneuver you're doing in the attempt to validate OSAS but I'm not going to chase every rabbit hole you happen to throw out there.
I assume you believe a saved person loses his/her salvation as soon as they fail. Or are you saying there is a time period? If so, can you elaborate how long it takes until Jesus takes it away?
Your continued claims that one does not have to believe on Jesus to receive the gift of eternal life is flatly refuted by the Bible. And you know that. Yet you insist on denying it. Faith in Christ is the means by which a person takes possession of the gift of eternal life. Your claim is not Biblical.
And sanctification has both a positional and an experiential aspect. Every believer is positionally sanctified the moment he places his faith in Christ. But experiential sanctification is the process of spiritual growth which most believers in Christ do not attain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
But as I have also "continually claimed" what is referred to as "believe ON" (pisteuo eis) Jesus has nothing to do with "believing IN" the myriad beliefs ABOUT Jesus that abound in the Christian religions. The faith you refer to is Christ's . . . not ours. When we "believe ON" Jesus we have faith that His faith and Spirit achieved what we could not. He was our "designated hitter."
We have nothing to do with our salvation . . . ONLY our sanctification. That is the Good News.
Why are you trying to make an issue out of 'believing on' Christ when I said 'believe on'? See the bolded.
The believer must place his personal faith in Jesus in order to receive the gift of eternal life.
When speaking to the woman who was anointing His head with oil and kissing His feet, Jesus told her that her faith in Him had saved her. Luke 7:37-50.
Luke 7:50 And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Faith - pistis; 4102, and believe - pisteuó; 4100, are related terms.
Ninety-five times in the Gospel of John the necessity of belief or faith in Christ is stated. We must do the believing. We must have the faith in Christ by which means we receive the free gift of eternal life.
I assume you believe a saved person loses his/her salvation as soon as they fail. Or are you saying there is a time period? If so, can you elaborate how long it takes until Jesus takes it away?
I would have expected such questions from the likes of Mystic, Jerwade, thrillobyte ... but from you?
Is that what you want to be known as when one hardens themself to the truth of all what Jesus said to the exclusion of some others in order to hold on to a false theology?
God has taught both as the truth not one over the other as being the truth as OSAS distorts it into.
Why are you trying to make an issue out of 'believing on' Christ when I said 'believe on'?
Why .... IMO as to distract from the real issue at hand, the not wanting to admit of rejecting what Jesus spoke is the truth. So they make an issue over words.
Either one conforms to the truth ... or conforms the truth to their thinking.
I used to hold the same position as you Mike, but I changed my mind and ultimately became an atheist. The best theological argument against your position, is that God is sometimes (often?) makes promises with hidden conditions.
1 Sam. 2:30 Therefore the Lord, the God of Israel, declares: ‘I promised that your house and the house of your father should go in and out before me forever,’ but now the Lord declares: ‘Far be it from me, for those who honor me I will honor, and those who despise me shall be lightly esteemed.
Another example is in the book of Jonah, where God promises to destroy Nineveh
Jonah 3:4 Jonah began by going a day's journey into the city, proclaiming, "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown." Then we read that it was not overthrown because the city repented. So, the lesson is that a promise can have hidden conditions that are not explicit.
This was the worst discovery for me at that time (a few years ago), which indicated that the Bible cannot be trusted in what it literally teaches.
God has both conditional and non-conditional promises. There are no conditions attached to the believer's eternal security. One such unconditional promise is that since the believer has died with Christ he will live with Christ.
As for God taking the priesthood from the line of Ithamar, a requirement of the priesthood was to be holy to God and not to profane the name of God, as stated in Leviticus 21:6. Ely's sons did not obey that command and Ely did not nothing about it and so God removed the priesthood.
As for Nineveh, the whole point of God sending Jonah there was to give Nineveh a chance to repent and therefore not be destroyed. As stated in Jeremiah 18:7-10 regarding God's actions against a nation,
Jer. 18:7 "At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8] if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9] "Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10] if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. 11] "So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, 'Thus says the LORD, "Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds."'
In Jonah 3:10 it is seen that the people of Nineveh did turn from their ways and therefore God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them.
I would have expected such questions from the likes of Mystic, Jerwade, thrillobyte ... but from you?
Is that what you want to be known as when one hardens themself to the truth of all what Jesus said to the exclusion of some others in order to hold on to a false theology?
God has taught both as the truth not one over the other as being the truth as OSAS distorts it into.
Can you answer the question please? If Jesus can take away your salvation it is important to know how it happens, especially when you have said that once you lose it, you can't get it back. Your "produce or perish" friend said that even a feeling of envy can cause it to happen. Do you agree with that?
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