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You said Jesus thinks of the "rocky ground" people as believers. I am just pointing out the Bible does not say they were.
"They believe for a while,"
Just exactly what do you call somebody who believe in something ? .... ah, maybe a believer?
Does Jesus exactly define just how long "for a while" is before it qualifies to the OSAS crowd?
Or maybe that's going to be something your going to point to chapter verse for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Who abides in Christ? What does it mean?
“Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.” (1 John 4:15)
That's it.
The problem with your "produce fruit or perish" teaching is the fact that Jesus Himself says it is impossible for people to produce fruit on their own. People can produce fruit only if Jesus makes is happen. He says "no branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me".
Yeah, so? By itself there isn't anything you've stated that is incorrect.
But to combine it as you're doing to validate OSAS, the just who are you saying that to ... me?
It was not I who spoke
Luke 8:15 "But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it,and by persevering produce a crop."
James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
You are less in control of your fruit production than you realize. He won't doom anyone in a moment of weakness, or during fruitless years. It is also impossible for you to settle your own salvation, because only Christ can produce that kind of fruit, and He did it when you confessed He is the son of God.
You remain in Christ by trusting Him with your salvation. You don't do it by trying to perform works, the works follow faith, not the other way round. Jesus freed you from the slavery of sin, and made you a part of the family. You can stop feeling like a slave.
You sure do like to take things one step further, don't you.
Again, by itself there isn't anything you've stated that I'd point to as being incorrect. But it's when you do so while attempting OSAS, is then when I know who you really have issues with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
I hope you realize that anyone could throw that accusation right back at you.
Disagreeing with someone's views does not boil down to distorting the truth.
You can disagree with me all you want .... disagree with Jesus' own words, then it is distorting the truth.
It's obvious that people who disagree with Jesus embrace OSAS ... for they wantonly distort words like "fall away" \ "remain in me" \"remain to the very end" \ retain it, and by persevering produce a crop" with human reasoning arguments to such obscene levels.
Yes Finn, it does boil down to distorting the truth. Acts 20:30
Yes Finn, it does boil down to distorting the truth. Acts 20:30
That would make you are guilty if distorting the truth every time you disagree with verses which clearly teach eternal salvation.
I believe Christ promise of eternal life, and if you think that boils down to distorting the truth, then so be it. It is your personal judgment, and nothing more.
Anyone who departs was never saved, and you can't lose what you never had. "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 1 John 2:19".
That would make you are guilty if distorting the truth every time you disagree with verses which clearly teach eternal salvation.
I believe Christ promise of eternal life, and if you think that boils down to distorting the truth, then so be it. It is your personal judgment, and nothing more.
Anyone who departs was never saved, and you can't lose what you never had. "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 1 John 2:19".
Only that I have stated multiple times that there are two separate truths being taught.
That God teaches
that people can\ does fall from faith ...... 1 Corinthians 10:12, Galatians 5:4, Matthew 13:18-22, Romans 8:9-14, Luke 8:13
that He will keep us safe ....... John 10:28-29
1 Corinthians 10:12, Galatians 5:4, Matthew 13:18-22, Romans 8:9-14, Luke 8:13 is not my personal judgement .... your dismissal of them are.
I acknowledge both are true, whereas you're not willing to. And that is what boils down to distorting the truth .... your unwillingness.
Just today a visitor to our church in Bible class said that he called the Charles Stanely Ministry about the OSAS error wanting to speak to someone other than the receptionist. After being connected to whomever, he proceeded on showing from scripture where OSAS is refuted by scriptures only to be told...
----> We don't believe that !!<------
to which he concluded ...
"well duh, then you don't believe what God says in the Bible."
If you consider Jesus expectation of being FAITHFUL.
And if you love God with out making excuses.
It isn't the standard of men that governs ones actions , but the jealous desperate hunger for the guidance of the Holy Spirit .
With out faithful dependence on the instruction of the Holy Spirit ,one cannot know and do the will of God .
Vacillating is not acceptable .
When men compromise ,they fail.
God does not compromise with rebellion .
The more given, the more required. Luke 12;48,
Only that I have stated multiple times that there are two separate truths being taught.
That God teaches
that people can\ does fall from faith ...... 1 Corinthians 10:12, Galatians 5:4, Matthew 13:18-22, Romans 8:9-14, Luke 8:13
that He will keep us safe ....... John 10:28-29
1 Corinthians 10:12, Galatians 5:4, Matthew 13:18-22, Romans 8:9-14, Luke 8:13 is not my personal judgement .... your dismissal of them are.
I acknowledge both are true, whereas you're not willing to. And that is what boils down to distorting the truth .... your unwillingness.
Just today a visitor to our church in Bible class said that he called the Charles Stanely Ministry about the OSAS error wanting to speak to someone other than the receptionist. After being connected to whomever, he proceeded on showing from scripture where OSAS is refuted by scriptures only to be told...
----> We don't believe that !!<------
to which he concluded ...
"well duh, then you don't believe what God says in the Bible."
There are two things: Your view of the verses, and the truth, and the two are not necessarily the same. You accuse others of distorting the truth when they do not agree with your view. 1 Corinthians 10:12 does not say anything about people losing their salvation. None of the verses do.
Galatians 5:4 is actually something every "produce or perish" Christian should pay special attention to, because it actually says that their legalist views has caused them to fall from grace, which (according to their own understanding) means Jesus has taken away their salvation.
You do equate 'falling from grace' with 'losing salvation', but I don't.
Galatians 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
There are two things: Your view of the verses, and the truth, and the two are not necessarily the same. You accuse others of distorting the truth when they do not agree with your view. 1 Corinthians 10:12 does not say anything about people losing their salvation. None of the verses do.
Galatians 5:4 is actually something every "produce or perish" Christian should pay special attention to, because it actually says that their legalist views has caused them to fall from grace, which (according to their own understanding) means Jesus has taken away their salvation.
You do equate 'falling from grace' with 'losing salvation', but I don't.
Galatians 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
Jesus:
" the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by perseveringproduce a crop."
OSAS' advocates response .... read the above.
Jesus' reply:
"Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me?" John 8:46
"If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.” Mark 3:38
Mark 8:38 is what adamant OSAS advocates should pay special attention to, because God said anybody who offers a different gospel plan (Galatians 1:8-9) to those who do not remain in him (John 15:4-9) to the very end (Hebrews 3:14; Hebrews 6:11) will be cursed, in other words damned. (Galatians 1:8-9)
" the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by perseveringproduce a crop."
OSAS' advocates response .... read the above.
Jesus' reply:
"Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me?" John 8:46
"If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.” Mark 3:38
Mark 8:38 is what adamant OSAS advocates should pay special attention to, because God said anybody who offers a different gospel plan (Galatians 1:8-9) to those who do not remain in him (John 15:4-9) to the very end (Hebrews 3:14; Hebrews 6:11) will be cursed, in other words damned. (Galatians 1:8-9)
Twin.spin, the different gospel of which Paul spoke was the gospel which makes works a requirement for salvation in contrast to the gospel of salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ alone which Paul and the other apostles taught. As shown in Acts 15 the Judaizers were teaching that you had to be circumcised according to the custom of Moses in order to be saved. It was this false teaching to which Paul referred in Galatians 5 and with reference to which he meant that if the Galatians accepted circumcision they would be falling from grace by going into the Mosaic Law system. They would be rejecting the grace teaching they had learned in favor of legalism. Falling from grace is not falling away from one's eternal salvation but is rejecting grace for legalism.
As Peter said at the council at Jerusalem, and at which the apostle Paul was present when Peter said it,
Acts 15:11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."
Peter was speaking on behalf of the other apostles and the elders and the whole church at Jerusalem.
The gospel of grace to which the apostles held rejects works as a means of salvation. Since man cannot earn eternal life by his works, neither can he maintain his salvation by anything that he does, and therefore cannot lose his salvation by anything that he does.
Jesus Himself after stating that eternal life is not by works, but through faith in Him (John 6:27-29) then said that everyone who believes on Him will have eternal life (John 6:37-40).
Once having believed on Christ and having been given eternal life, the believer who becomes faithless cannot lose his salvation as 2 Tim. 2:11-13 states.
Every believer has died with Christ and will therefore live with Christ as per 2 Tim. 2:11.
The believer who endures in his spiritual life on this earth will rule with Christ as per verse 12, while the believer who denies Christ and is faithless will be denied rulership privileges.
If the believer is faithless, he cannot lose his salvation because Christ remains faithful since He cannot deny Himself (verse 13). Every believer is a part of the body of Christ and is eternally secure.
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