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Question to Bakari Neferu, then are we talking about Afrocentrists or Egyptocentrists then? This why I asked this question earlier in the thread, as anyone can call themselves or be viewed as something, but can be something else.
You can call them Egyptocentrists, but the term "Afrocentric" has been applied to such individuals as well, both by critics of afrocentrism as well as the the very people dispensing the afrocentric notions; and while most of these people obsess over trying to lay some claim to Ancient Egypt, they also try to do that with other regions of the world they have nothing to do with like Mesoamerica, Ancient India, Iberia, Hebrews, Arabians, and other areas.
I think it has only been in recent times where Afrocentrists have been less enthusiastic about associating themselves with the term "Afrocentric", largely, I believe, because of the backlash Afrocentrism has received from both Academics and laymen, especially online.
So, admittedly, it is as much of an issue in terms of identification by not only those that self proclaim themselves to be such, but also by those that label them as such.
Honestly, I have rarely, if even seen anyone state that African Americans are related to Egyptians. What I think this is all about is that within the European created construct of race, that there is a "Black" African influence in Ancient Egypt, which counters the Eurocentric, dare I go a step further and say supremacist view of Egypt. So, in turn, it beats said people at their own game, in a sense, given the acclaim given to Ancient Egypt by that set of people.
So, admittedly, it is as much of an issue in terms of identification by not only those that self proclaim themselves to be such, but also by those that label them as such.
Honestly, I have rarely, if even seen anyone state that African Americans are related to Egyptians. What I think this is all about is that within the European created construct of race, that there is a "Black" African influence in Ancient Egypt, which counters the Eurocentric, dare I go a step further and say supremacist view of Egypt. So, in turn, it beats said people at their own game, in a sense, given the acclaim given to Ancient Egypt by that set of people.
I try not to engage in word play. If we are to say that people who try to claim relations to Egypt are not Afrocentric but Egyptocentric, we have still not addressed the problem of why they claim so when it is inherently and obviously false.
The explanation that the notion Black people's involvement in the creation of or rule over Ancient Egypt cannot be sufficient to explain this. One does not need to look to Egypt in order to question or even topple eurocentric, racist myths about pre-colonial African backwardness or inferiority. When Europeans discovered Great Zimbabwe, they were so floored by the complexity of the architecture there that they immediately rejected any possibility of indigenous formation. They did that also with the Swahili States of the Interlacustrine coast. Europeans were similarly impressed with kingdoms of Benin, Kongo, Buganda, etc. And these kingdoms were not even as complex as those of the Sudanic empires and city-states.
The point of this thread is that there are plenty of civilizations in the interior of Africa and in the homeland of African Americans that put to rest eurocentric racist ideology about Black people; and I believe we have still barely scratched the surface of what remains to be written about West and Central African history.
The op was also right about there being so many medieval manuscripts not only from Mali or other parts of West Africa, but also other regions of North Africa, and the Middle East that have yet to be translated and disseminated to the public that contain much information about Africans both in Africa and those that traveled to foreign lands. It is a project of monumental task that will require decades to complete, but not enough funding is being put up to take it on.
Afrocentrists are so busy concerning themselves about a region they have no relation to when they could be the ones playing the pivotal role in unearthing and revealing to the world the accomplishments of their real ancestors. But they don't do this, and many don't even seem to possess much interest in doing so.
Just take a look at the older afrocentrists like Clarke, Sertima, Asa Hilliard, etc., who have written many books, but none on West Africa. History of West Africa by J.F. Ade Ajayi remains probably the most authoritative book on West African history there exists, and it was written back in the 70s, and by a Nigerian. How come we haven't seen any books on the subject by any afrocentrists?
Many of the actions attributed to her, like her leading in some of the battles for territorial acquisition, fortifying some of the town walls and things of that sort, I have no doubt are true. She is also purported to have had some 40 eunuchs from Nupe and 10,000 kola nuts delivered to her, possibly as tribute, via the west. She obviously had a lot of sway during her time.
I think the General History of Africa anthologies were initially printed in English, or at least were translated to English upon arrival to the Americas, since all the copies I've seen so far are in English. Just go to any major library (public or university) and they'll most likely have it or know how you can get it. I live in the Bay Area, and they are pretty accessible here.
Alternatively, you could just go on Amazon and get them. They are an eight-volume collection with an average of about 800 or so pages per volume, so they'll keep you pretty busy for while. And in case you were interested, volume 4 covers most of medieval African history, which is the period you would find the information about Amina and much more. Volume 5 covers the time of the slave trade and European/African relations.
You seem fairly knowledgeable about African history, though. Might I ask what books have you read on the subject?
Basil Davidson's books, Ibn Battuta, The Epic of Sundiata, various college text books, Black Athena (I gave it a shot), The Washing of the Spears, Like Lions They Fought, The Fate of Africa, The Drums of Kumasi, the books of Chinua Achebe, Gods Bits of Wood. I have read various ones over the years that I have forgotten the titles. I even attempted the Tarikh as Soudan, but since I don't speak French, you can imagine how that went.
The great thing is that because of the internet, a lot of this information can be researched at yoru fingertips, but I am still always looking for good titles if you have suggestions?
All my life I loved Africa. Something about the aesthetic of the art, architecture, clothing. It is a shame that there aren't more people out there trying to translate the other songs of the griots so we can have more books like The Epic of Sundiatta.
Everytime an Egyptian exhibit comes to town, or something else similar (heck, even a search on this forum will probably show some threads), there is some group of blacks (small minority of them) that keep proclaiming that Egypt was black (even will set up a small protests sometimes), and the entire world is in some conspiracy to keep this knowledge secret. I have also heard claims that everyone ranging from Socrates to Augustus Caesar was black.
Amazing. Also very common promotion that Cleopatra was black, when her roots were well documented as Macedonian.
I try not to engage in word play. If we are to say that people who try to claim relations to Egypt are not Afrocentric but Egyptocentric, we have still not addressed the problem of why they claim so when it is inherently and obviously false.
The explanation that the notion Black people's involvement in the creation of or rule over Ancient Egypt cannot be sufficient to explain this. One does not need to look to Egypt in order to question or even topple eurocentric, racist myths about pre-colonial African backwardness or inferiority. When Europeans discovered Great Zimbabwe, they were so floored by the complexity of the architecture there that they immediately rejected any possibility of indigenous formation. They did that also with the Swahili States of the Interlacustrine coast. Europeans were similarly impressed with kingdoms of Benin, Kongo, Buganda, etc. And these kingdoms were not even as complex as those of the Sudanic empires and city-states.
The point of this thread is that there are plenty of civilizations in the interior of Africa and in the homeland of African Americans that put to rest eurocentric racist ideology about Black people; and I believe we have still barely scratched the surface of what remains to be written about West and Central African history.
The op was also right about there being so many medieval manuscripts not only from Mali or other parts of West Africa, but also other regions of North Africa, and the Middle East that have yet to be translated and disseminated to the public that contain much information about Africans both in Africa and those that traveled to foreign lands. It is a project of monumental task that will require decades to complete, but not enough funding is being put up to take it on.
Afrocentrists are so busy concerning themselves about a region they have no relation to when they could be the ones playing the pivotal role in unearthing and revealing to the world the accomplishments of their real ancestors. But they don't do this, and many don't even seem to possess much interest in doing so.
Just take a look at the older afrocentrists like Clarke, Sertima, Asa Hilliard, etc., who have written many books, but none on West Africa. History of West Africa by J.F. Ade Ajayi remains probably the most authoritative book on West African history there exists, and it was written back in the 70s, and by a Nigerian. How come we haven't seen any books on the subject by any afrocentrists?
That is because they aren't Afrocentrists and rearely have I've heard people claim Egypt, to be frank or at least they may or may not be concerned with the vary degree of civilizations on the African continent. Keep in mind that those that claim that label aren't necessarily African American(i.e.-Sertima). There's the fact that people are using a current construct for something that wasn't a part of the social reality in that civilization. Meaning, that people are looking at things from a "Black" point of view that while said people that are under that social constructed reality played a part in that civilization, it wasn't viewed that way in Ancient Egypt.
Also, I believe that many Black people know about the great Western African civilizations like the Mali, Ghana and Songhai, as well as the many other great interior African civilizations. Even my overwhelmingly White middle school discussed these civilizations. So, in essence, this thread is more concerned with a small, fringe portion of a large set of folks.
I also agree that people are really scratching the surface in regards to Africa in general, including Egypt.
Last edited by ckhthankgod; 02-21-2014 at 04:11 PM..
"Postcolonial discourses on African Diaspora history and relations have traditionally focused intensely on highlighting the common experiences and links between black Africans and African Americans. This is especially true of Afrocentric scholars and supporters who use Africa to construct and validate a monolithic, racial, and culturally essentialist worldview. Publications by Afrocentric scholars such as Molefi Asante, Marimba Ani, Maulana Karenga, and the late John Henrik Clarke have emphasized the centrality of Africa to the construction of Afrocentric essentialism."
The study explores Clarke's development and conceptualization of Afrikan World History by examining his intellectual influences and training, his approach to teaching Afrikan World History, his notions regarding Afrikan agency and Afrikan humanity, his explorations of themes of Pan Afrikanism and national sovereignty, his ideas concerning the relevance of Afrikan culture in historical perspective, and his legacy in Afrikan intellectualism and culture, including his contribution to the Afrocentric paradigm that is the core of the discipline of Africana Studies/Africalogy.
Black and white people say that they are; because they are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod
and rearely have I've heard people claim Egypt
Your limited world-view or experience aside, afrocentrism and the claims made by such individuals relating themselves to Egypt is ubiquitous all across the internet and in african-american studies courses across the country, including ones I've attended. It didn't even take me 30 seconds to find those articles and photos I posted in this and my earlier post. Such individuals are everywhere, and it doesn't take a special ops team to find them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod
to be frank or at least they may or may not be concerned with the vary degree of civilizations on the African continent. Keep in mind that those that claim that label aren't necessarily African American(i.e.-Sertima).
It doesn't matter whether people claim to be afrocentrists or not. They exhibit Afrocentric behavior. And as for your point about Sertima and other foreign afrocentrists, where do you think their biggest following is? the biggest purchasers and advocates of their books and ideas are?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod
There's the fact that people are using a current construct for something that wasn't a part of the social reality in that civilization. Meaning, that people are looking at things from a "Black" point of view that while said people that are under that social constructed reality played a part in that civilization, it wasn't viewed that way in Ancient Egypt.
Whether it was viewed that way or not, Ancient Egyptians still have nothing to do with African Americans, and I haven't heard of any Afrocentrists devote the same amount of their attention to interior African kingdoms, and particularly those of West Africa, as they have of Ancient Egypt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod
Also, I believe that many Black people know about the great Western African civilizations like the Mali, Ghana and Songhai, as well as the many other great interior African civilizations.
I don't. From my experience, Black people tend to be incredibly, and many times embarrassingly ignorant of African history, including the great islamic empires of West Africa. I remember having a discussion with my dad and his female friend, who admitted that she had literally said that Egyptians were her ancestors to some Arab or some other person saying that his people are the rightful heirs of Egyptian historic legacy.
This same woman claiming Egyptian ancestors didn't know what I was talking about when I mentioned the Hausa people or the Malian empire. I had lost interest in getting to Toucouleur or Tekrur or Bornu for fear that I would be talking to myself for the whole rest of the conversation; like what usually happens when I talk to Black people about African history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod
Even my overwhelmingly White middle school discussed these civilizations.
Then you're lucky. I didn't learn anything about Africa (other than the the fact that it was colonized at some point, then decolonized at some other point) until after I left school. I don't even think I knew that Egypt was in Africa when I was in Middle School, despite the trip my father took me on one day to see a long and painfully boring Egyptian documentary at the Chabot IMAX theater out here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod
So, in essence, this thread is more concerned with a small, fringe portion of a large set of folks.
If by this you mean to say that afrocentrists are a minority among the general African American population, then you are simply stating the obvious. People who know anything about African history at all are a minority among African Americans.
Black and white people say that they are; because they are.
Your limited world-view or experience aside, afrocentrism and the claims made by such individuals relating themselves to Egypt is ubiquitous all across the internet and in african-american studies courses across the country, including ones I've attended. It didn't even take me 30 seconds to find those articles and photos I posted in this and my earlier post. Such individuals are everywhere, and it doesn't take a special ops team to find them.
It doesn't matter whether people claim to be afrocentrists or not. They exhibit Afrocentric behavior. And as for your point about Sertima and other foreign afrocentrists, where do you think their biggest following is? the biggest purchasers and advocates of their books and ideas are?
Whether it was viewed that way or not, Ancient Egyptians still have nothing to do with African Americans, and I haven't heard of any Afrocentrists devote the same amount of their attention to interior African kingdoms, and particularly those of West Africa, as they have of Ancient Egypt.
I don't. From my experience, Black people tend to be incredibly, and many times embarrassingly ignorant of African history, including the great islamic empires of West Africa. I remember having a discussion with my dad and his female friend, who admitted that she had literally said that Egyptians were her ancestors to some Arab or some other person saying that his people are the rightful heirs of Egyptian historic legacy.
This same woman claiming Egyptian ancestors didn't know what I was talking about when I mentioned the Hausa people or the Malian empire. I had lost interest in getting to Toucouleur or Tekrur or Bornu for fear that I would be talking to myself for the whole rest of the conversation; like what usually happens when I talk to Black people about African history.
Then you're lucky. I didn't learn anything about Africa (other than the the fact that it was colonized at some point, then decolonized at some other point) until after I left school. I don't even think I knew that Egypt was in Africa when I was in Middle School, despite the trip my father took me on one day to see a long and painfully boring Egyptian documentary at the Chabot IMAX theater out here.
If by this you mean to say that afrocentrists are a minority among the general African American population, then you are simply stating the obvious. People who know anything about African history at all are a minority among African Americans.
My point is that if one focuses on a portion of the African continent, then they center their energy on that particular area. That doesn't necessarily mean that they are Afrocentric, at large or in the truest meaning of the term.
As for your dad and his friend, that is her issue and while there aren't enough African americans that have an idea about West African history, I wouldn't underestimate as to how many African Americans have some knowledge of West African history.
As for your schooling, shame on them. I've personally have had some interest on Africa and West African history, but if no one else displays this history, then one has to look for themselves. That isn't anything new in regards to African Americans.
Also, what do you consider Afrocentric behavior? Where in those photos did it say that african Americans are related to Egyptians?
Again, I believe the thing is that there was a "Black" influence in Egypt. I don't think it is about African Americans claiming to be related to Egyptians.
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