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But no pyramids in Nok culture? No columned temples? No hieroglyphic writing? No extensive writing on the concept of Ma'at?
The Nok had nothing to do with Egypt. Nothing. This is fantasy.
Since you didn't bother opening the link. Let me do the honor of showing you what it says.
History - Relation to Ancient Egypt
Khnoum is the guardian god of Egyptian pantheism, the mythic founder of the Egyptian civilization, and the potter god, one who works men, women and animals in clay to give them life. Khnoum could be the link showing a direct relation between Ancient Egypt and certain sub-Saharan African civilizations. Sheik Anta Diop has studied this theory conscientiously. Here, we provide a summary of his position.
The direction of the research outlined, explored and conducted by Sheik Anta Diop concerning sub-Saharan Africa and its culture is multifaceted: the origins of African humanity, the black origin of the Egyptian/Nubian civilization, the precedence of Nubia in relation to Egypt, the identification of large migratory currents, the formation of different African ethnic groups, the linguistic relationship between Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa, and the formation of the African states after the decline of Egypt. His research used the sciences (dating methods, chemical analyses, etc.) to answer historical questions, rather than to hypothesize in vain.
The Egyptology conference of Cairo, organized by UNESCO in 1974, marked an historic stage in African historiography, or the writing of African history. For the first time, African Egyptology experts shared the results of their research with their international counterparts under the aegis of UNESCO. A. Cultural arguments
All levels of culture are included in this comparative study between Ancient Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa. Many similarities arise, particularly in the fields of:
linguistics, with modern sub-Saharan African languages being compared to the Egyptian languages, Pharaonic and Copte. Similarities exist in grammar (morphology and syntax), conjugation and vocabulary...
architecture, where monuments in Egypt, Nubia, Ethiopia, Mali and Zimbabwe were studied. An historical continuity was established.
the craft industry. Multiple objects of everyday life were researched: head-rests, combs, woven clothing, sandals, brushes, decorated water bottles... proving direct inspiration and perpetuation of tradition.
ways of life. Royal badges (scepters, whips, sticks, flagellum...), hairstyles, musical instruments (such as harps which are to be found in Egypt and Central Africa), clothing and ornaments (jewelry...) are compared.
technology, studying different techniques used to manufacture tools and objects (control of fire, cooking, metallurgy...) as well as the tools themselves, such as the hoe (design, utilization, symbolic references, terms of indication).
writing. Contemporary sub-Saharan Africa has preserved written forms of hieroglyphic writing (Vaï, Bamoun, Nsibidi, etc.) that are similar to Egyptian hieroglyphics.
art, where sculptures from different artists in pharonic Egypt, Benin, Nigeria, the Massaï country, and Zimbabwe are compared...
B. Sociological arguments
The study of their sociology highlights even more features common to the civilizations of ancient Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa. In particular...
matriarchy, characterized by both societies being organized around women.
totemism, or the complex association of an animal (for example the falcon, the crowned crane, the crocodile, or the cat...) with an individual or a group and used in forms of worship.
religion, which reveals the Egyptian/Nubian pantheon replicated in Benin, Togo and Nigeria from the Fon, Ewé and Yoruba cultures.
philosophy
ethonyms, or the fact that the names of cultural human groups in modern Africa still carry many of the names used in ancient Egypt: Atoum, Antef, Sek, Meri, Kara, Bara, Bari, Raka, Sen Sar, Kaba, Keti, Amenti, Kamara, Konare, Sankale, Sangare, Sankare, etc.
attributes of royalty like the uræus are represented on the royal crown of the Pharaon and of Oni d'Ife respectively.
systems of knowledge transmission. An essential common characteristic between ancient Egypt and sahelian Africa: knowledge transmission begins.
C. Anthropologic arguments
Such as:
the study of Egyptian hieroglyphic texts and terms which show that the inhabitants of ancient Egypt considered themselves as Negroes.
the study of the writings of Herodotus (480? - 425 B.C.), considered the "Father of History", a seasoned traveller and an eye-witness, as well as other Greek and Roman philosophers and historians each illustrating the observable genetic traits of the ancient Egyptians.
the study of the Bible as well as Jewish and Muslim traditions, each preserving the memory of the line of Cham, biblical ancestor of the Blacks: particularly Kush (Kouch) and Misraïm (Egypt).
iconography (sculptures and paintings).
physical anthropology and molecular biology and the osteopathic study of skeletons, the study of the mummies blood groups and skin pigmentation (melanin, the chemical compound dictating skin color, is preserved in time and should not be confused with mummification products such as bitumen), etc., all reveal a relation between the ancient Egyptians and the Negro-African populations.
D. Historical arguments
These arguments damage the theory that the origin of the Egyptian civilization is Lower Egypt and the countries of the Middle East by pointing to Upper Egypt and towards Africa in the south. The arguments are based on:
the study of hieroglyphic Egyptian texts which show that the typical ancient Egyptian was oriented towards the south, or the direction of the land of their ancestors, who had, over time, redirected the course of the "divine" Nile. Indeed, for the ancient Egyptian, the sun rose to the left and set to the right.
the historical tradition in which Diodora of Sicily (approx. 90 - 20 B.C.) writes: "The Ethiopians say that the Egypt is one of their colonies, their colonists having been led to Egypt by Osiris. They even claim that this country was nothing more than a sea at the beginning of the world, and that the flooding of the Nile had brought silt converting this sea into a part of the continent."
geophysics and the geological dating of samples using physio-chemical methods such as Carbon-14 dating make it possible to establish at what time the Nile Delta formed and to confirm or refute the information presented by Diodora of Sicily and Herodotus concerning the Egyptians and the Ethiopians. This wish was in a way granted with geological dating of the sea bed. In chapter 5, "Legends, Stories, Sea Level", of his book Man and Climate (Paris, Éditions Denoël, 1985), Jacques Labeyrie, the former director of the CEA-CNRS center of radioactivity, indicates that the results of these datings establish that the northern movement of the Egyptian civilization towards the delta is correlated with the lowering sea level, directly refuting earlier held beliefs.
archaeology, with the excavations carried out in Upper Egypt and Sudan, highlighting the southernmost origin of Egyptian civilization.
At the close of the Egyptology conference in Cairo, Sheik Anta Diop called for a reorientation of the study of Egyptology, accompanied by a dialogue with African researchers: "This conference could be regarded as a turning point, making possible the reconciliation of Egyptology with Africa, and the rediscovery of its richness. The scientific dialogue on the international level is well established, and one should hope that it will not be broken. Following the discussions, participants did not fail to express their will to reorientate their work towards Africa and to intensify their collaboration with African researchers. African studies will not escape the vicious circle in which they move unless they find their direction and their richness by turning towards the Nile valley. In turn, Egyptology will not leave its secular sclerosis of hermetism and of texts until the day it finds the courage to destroy the valve which insulates it, consequently opening itself to its invigorating source, the Negro world." (in Anteriority of Negro Civilizations - Myth or Historical Truth?)
More information can be found at http://www.ankhonline.com/egypte1.htm and http://www.ankhonline.com/cheikh.htm.
"African" doesn't mean anything. It is a continent. The Egyptians were genetically, phenotypically, and culturally very different from west Africans.
After or the *******s from you and the others, the question is the same: why not celebrate your real ancestors instead of people that were not your ancestors and had little to do with you?
I'm a little perplexed and a little uncomfortable with your obsession of insisting that people are from "West Africa".
Since you didn't bother opening the link. Let me do the honor of showing you what it says.
History - Relation to Ancient Egypt
Khnoum is the guardian god of Egyptian pantheism, the mythic founder of the Egyptian civilization, and the potter god, one who works men, women and animals in clay to give them life. Khnoum could be the link showing a direct relation between Ancient Egypt and certain sub-Saharan African civilizations. Sheik Anta Diop has studied this theory conscientiously. Here, we provide a summary of his position.
The direction of the research outlined, explored and conducted by Sheik Anta Diop concerning sub-Saharan Africa and its culture is multifaceted: the origins of African humanity, the black origin of the Egyptian/Nubian civilization, the precedence of Nubia in relation to Egypt, the identification of large migratory currents, the formation of different African ethnic groups, the linguistic relationship between Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa, and the formation of the African states after the decline of Egypt. His research used the sciences (dating methods, chemical analyses, etc.) to answer historical questions, rather than to hypothesize in vain.
The Egyptology conference of Cairo, organized by UNESCO in 1974, marked an historic stage in African historiography, or the writing of African history. For the first time, African Egyptology experts shared the results of their research with their international counterparts under the aegis of UNESCO. A. Cultural arguments
All levels of culture are included in this comparative study between Ancient Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa. Many similarities arise, particularly in the fields of:
linguistics, with modern sub-Saharan African languages being compared to the Egyptian languages, Pharaonic and Copte. Similarities exist in grammar (morphology and syntax), conjugation and vocabulary...
architecture, where monuments in Egypt, Nubia, Ethiopia, Mali and Zimbabwe were studied. An historical continuity was established.
the craft industry. Multiple objects of everyday life were researched: head-rests, combs, woven clothing, sandals, brushes, decorated water bottles... proving direct inspiration and perpetuation of tradition.
ways of life. Royal badges (scepters, whips, sticks, flagellum...), hairstyles, musical instruments (such as harps which are to be found in Egypt and Central Africa), clothing and ornaments (jewelry...) are compared.
technology, studying different techniques used to manufacture tools and objects (control of fire, cooking, metallurgy...) as well as the tools themselves, such as the hoe (design, utilization, symbolic references, terms of indication).
writing. Contemporary sub-Saharan Africa has preserved written forms of hieroglyphic writing (Vaï, Bamoun, Nsibidi, etc.) that are similar to Egyptian hieroglyphics.
art, where sculptures from different artists in pharonic Egypt, Benin, Nigeria, the Massaï country, and Zimbabwe are compared...
B. Sociological arguments
The study of their sociology highlights even more features common to the civilizations of ancient Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa. In particular...
matriarchy, characterized by both societies being organized around women.
totemism, or the complex association of an animal (for example the falcon, the crowned crane, the crocodile, or the cat...) with an individual or a group and used in forms of worship.
religion, which reveals the Egyptian/Nubian pantheon replicated in Benin, Togo and Nigeria from the Fon, Ewé and Yoruba cultures.
philosophy
ethonyms, or the fact that the names of cultural human groups in modern Africa still carry many of the names used in ancient Egypt: Atoum, Antef, Sek, Meri, Kara, Bara, Bari, Raka, Sen Sar, Kaba, Keti, Amenti, Kamara, Konare, Sankale, Sangare, Sankare, etc.
attributes of royalty like the uræus are represented on the royal crown of the Pharaon and of Oni d'Ife respectively.
systems of knowledge transmission. An essential common characteristic between ancient Egypt and sahelian Africa: knowledge transmission begins.
C. Anthropologic arguments
Such as:
the study of Egyptian hieroglyphic texts and terms which show that the inhabitants of ancient Egypt considered themselves as Negroes.
the study of the writings of Herodotus (480? - 425 B.C.), considered the "Father of History", a seasoned traveller and an eye-witness, as well as other Greek and Roman philosophers and historians each illustrating the observable genetic traits of the ancient Egyptians.
the study of the Bible as well as Jewish and Muslim traditions, each preserving the memory of the line of Cham, biblical ancestor of the Blacks: particularly Kush (Kouch) and Misraïm (Egypt).
iconography (sculptures and paintings).
physical anthropology and molecular biology and the osteopathic study of skeletons, the study of the mummies blood groups and skin pigmentation (melanin, the chemical compound dictating skin color, is preserved in time and should not be confused with mummification products such as bitumen), etc., all reveal a relation between the ancient Egyptians and the Negro-African populations.
D. Historical arguments
These arguments damage the theory that the origin of the Egyptian civilization is Lower Egypt and the countries of the Middle East by pointing to Upper Egypt and towards Africa in the south. The arguments are based on:
the study of hieroglyphic Egyptian texts which show that the typical ancient Egyptian was oriented towards the south, or the direction of the land of their ancestors, who had, over time, redirected the course of the "divine" Nile. Indeed, for the ancient Egyptian, the sun rose to the left and set to the right.
the historical tradition in which Diodora of Sicily (approx. 90 - 20 B.C.) writes: "The Ethiopians say that the Egypt is one of their colonies, their colonists having been led to Egypt by Osiris. They even claim that this country was nothing more than a sea at the beginning of the world, and that the flooding of the Nile had brought silt converting this sea into a part of the continent."
geophysics and the geological dating of samples using physio-chemical methods such as Carbon-14 dating make it possible to establish at what time the Nile Delta formed and to confirm or refute the information presented by Diodora of Sicily and Herodotus concerning the Egyptians and the Ethiopians. This wish was in a way granted with geological dating of the sea bed. In chapter 5, "Legends, Stories, Sea Level", of his book Man and Climate (Paris, Éditions Denoël, 1985), Jacques Labeyrie, the former director of the CEA-CNRS center of radioactivity, indicates that the results of these datings establish that the northern movement of the Egyptian civilization towards the delta is correlated with the lowering sea level, directly refuting earlier held beliefs.
archaeology, with the excavations carried out in Upper Egypt and Sudan, highlighting the southernmost origin of Egyptian civilization.
At the close of the Egyptology conference in Cairo, Sheik Anta Diop called for a reorientation of the study of Egyptology, accompanied by a dialogue with African researchers: "This conference could be regarded as a turning point, making possible the reconciliation of Egyptology with Africa, and the rediscovery of its richness. The scientific dialogue on the international level is well established, and one should hope that it will not be broken. Following the discussions, participants did not fail to express their will to reorientate their work towards Africa and to intensify their collaboration with African researchers. African studies will not escape the vicious circle in which they move unless they find their direction and their richness by turning towards the Nile valley. In turn, Egyptology will not leave its secular sclerosis of hermetism and of texts until the day it finds the courage to destroy the valve which insulates it, consequently opening itself to its invigorating source, the Negro world." (in Anteriority of Negro Civilizations - Myth or Historical Truth?)
More information can be found at http://www.ankhonline.com/egypte1.htm and http://www.ankhonline.com/cheikh.htm.
A) This is all completely irrelevant. The Sudanese are not your ancestors any more than are the Egyptians. The point of the thread is that we should be hyping west Africa. Attributing the origins of Egypt to Sudan does not get you any closer...period.
B) Sudan attributed some building blocks, but the great things in Egypt happened in Egypt. It is nice that some of their economy was based on the Nubian cattle culture and the like, but the greatness of the Egyptians belongs to the Egyptians.
C) Post 529. The Egyptians are almost the same people as they always were.
D) As explained, the precedents of Egypt come from all around.
Please stop with these diversions, which certainly make a good topic for another thread.
You have yet to refute my point about "Eurocentric's" claiming Greco Roman culture. It's ok for most "Eurocentric's" to claim that culture and not ok for West Africans to claim Egyptian culture?(African Americans included) I've provided the sources with evidence that shows links between Sub-Sahara Africa(which includes some elements from Central and West Africa) and Egypt culturally and ethnically as the "foundations" of Egyptian culture.
Of course I have,. I refuted it long before you ever got here. not playing these games any more. YOU ARE NOT AN EGYTPIAN. YOU AHVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EGYPT.
I'm a little perplexed and a little uncomfortable with your obsession of insisting that people are from "West Africa".
More distraction and diversion. It is the point of this thread that Afrocentrists, who can largely trace their ancestry back to West Africa, illogically obsess over Egypt, which has nothing to do with them. I have now had over 60 pages of people arguing that they are not claiming Egypt as they claim Egypt, making straw mans, calling me a racist and other ad hominems, and at the end of the day, I am as correct as I was on page one.
Too Afrocentric right? lol. Guess I shouldn't bother mentioning Cheikh Anta Diop or any other African scholar for that matter. You'll just simply dismiss the information.
Yes. This is part of the problem. You don't understand the difference between science and crankery.
A) This is all completely irrelevant. The Sudanese are not your ancestors any more than are the Egyptians. The point of the thread is that we should be hyping west Africa. Attributing the origins of Egypt to Sudan does not get you any closer...period.
B) Sudan attributed some building blocks, but the great things in Egypt happened in Egypt. It is nice that some of their economy was based on the Nubian cattle culture and the like, but the greatness of the Egyptians belongs to the Egyptians.
C) Post 529. The Egyptians are almost the same people as they always were.
D) As explained, the precedents of Egypt come from all around.
Please stop with these diversions, which certainly make a good topic for another thread.
Dude. I've posted many times(with links to studies) that show their are cultural links between Central/West Africa and Ancient Egypt.(Which would give peoples of West African descent just as much right to recognize Ancient Egyptian culture as Northern Europeans do for Greco Roman culture) The whole point of this thread was "supposedly" to understand why Afrocentric people (in referece to African Americans) claim Ancient Egypt as their history. The point I've made over and over is that the same could be said of Northern Europeans in relation to Greco Roman culture. Your retort(which I showed was an invalid argument) was that "due to assimilation of Northern European tribes adopted Roman after being conquered which gives Europeans the privilege of claiming Greco Roman culture/identity." My point still stands. "Assimilation" is not the same as "Conception". People of Central and West African descent have as much right to relate to Ancient Egyptian culture as Northern Europeans relate to Greco Roman culture.
Your assumptions are baseless. You have absolutely no idea what the genetic make up is of any one who has responded to this thread.
African-American mitochondrial DNAs often match mtDNAs found in multiple African ethnic groups
Bert Ely, Jamie Lee Wilson, Fatimah Jackson and Bruce A Jackson
Abstract
Background
Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplotypes have become popular tools for tracing maternal ancestry, and several companies offer this service to the general public. Numerous studies have demonstrated that human mtDNA haplotypes can be used with confidence to identify the continent where the haplotype originated. Ideally, mtDNA haplotypes could also be used to identify a particular country or ethnic group from which the maternal ancestor emanated. However, the geographic distribution of mtDNA haplotypes is greatly influenced by the movement of both individuals and population groups. Consequently, common mtDNA haplotypes are shared among multiple ethnic groups. We have studied the distribution of mtDNA haplotypes among West African ethnic groups to determine how often mtDNA haplotypes can be used to reconnect Americans of African descent to a country or ethnic group of a maternal African ancestor. The nucleotide sequence of the mtDNA hypervariable segment I (HVS-I) usually provides sufficient information to assign a particular mtDNA to the proper haplogroup, and it contains most of the variation that is available to distinguish a particular mtDNA haplotype from closely related haplotypes. In this study, samples of general African-American and specific Gullah/Geechee HVS-I haplotypes were compared with two databases of HVS-I haplotypes from sub-Saharan Africa, and the incidence of perfect matches recorded for each sample. Results
When two independent African-American samples were analyzed, more than half of the sampled HVS-I mtDNA haplotypes exactly matched common haplotypes that were shared among multiple African ethnic groups. Another 40% did not match any sequence in the database, and fewer than 10% were an exact match to a sequence from a single African ethnic group. Differences in the regional distribution of haplotypes were observed in the African database, and the African-American haplotypes were more likely to match haplotypes found in ethnic groups from West or West Central Africa than those found in eastern or southern Africa. Fewer than 14% of the African-American mtDNA sequences matched sequences from only West Africa or only West Central Africa. Conclusion
Our database of sub-Saharan mtDNA sequences includes the most common haplotypes that are shared among ethnic groups from multiple regions of Africa. These common haplotypes have been found in half of all sub-Saharan Africans. More than 60% of the remaining haplotypes differ from the common haplotypes at a single nucleotide position in the HVS-I region, and they are likely to occur at varying frequencies within sub-Saharan Africa. However, the finding that 40% of the African-American mtDNAs analyzed had no match in the database indicates that only a small fraction of the total number of African haplotypes has been identified. In addition, the finding that fewer than 10% of African-American mtDNAs matched mtDNA sequences from a single African region suggests that few African Americans might be able to trace their mtDNA lineages to a particular region of Africa, and even fewer will be able to trace their mtDNA to a single ethnic group. However, no firm conclusions should be made until a much larger database is available. It is clear, however, that when identical mtDNA haplotypes are shared among many ethnic groups from different parts of Africa, it is impossible to determine which single ethnic group was the source of a particular maternal ancestor based on the mtDNA sequence.
A) This is all completely irrelevant. The Sudanese are not your ancestors any more than are the Egyptians. The point of the thread is that we should be hyping west Africa. Attributing the origins of Egypt to Sudan does not get you any closer...period.
B) Sudan attributed some building blocks, but the great things in Egypt happened in Egypt. It is nice that some of their economy was based on the Nubian cattle culture and the like, but the greatness of the Egyptians belongs to the Egyptians.
C) Post 529. The Egyptians are almost the same people as they always were.
D) As explained, the precedents of Egypt come from all around.
Please stop with these diversions, which certainly make a good topic for another thread.
Dude. I've posted many times(with links to studies) that show their are cultural links between Central/West Africa and Ancient Egypt.(Which would give peoples of West African descent just as much right to recognize Ancient Egyptian culture as Northern Europeans do for Greco Roman culture) The whole point of this thread was "supposedly" to understand why Afrocentric people (in referece to African Americans) claim Ancient Egypt as their history. The point I've made over and over is that the same could be said of Northern Europeans in relation to Greco Roman culture. Your retort(which I showed was an invalid argument) was that "due to assimilation of Northern European tribes that adopted Roman customs from being conquered, gives privileges to all Europeans to a Greco Roman culture/identity." My point still stands. "Assimilation" is not the same as "Conception". People of Central and West African descent have as much right to relate to Ancient Egyptian culture as Northern Europeans relate to Greco Roman culture.
You might want to go back and re read my posts.
"Archaeology does not provide the only data supporting an African origin for the ancient Egyptians. Studies of both ancient Egyptian and sub-Saharan African cultures have uncovered numerous similarities. This is not to say that African cultures are homogeneous or that Egyptian culture did not develop its own unique characteristics, but it does add more support to the argument that Egyptian civilization evolved from a common African cultural substratum."
Last edited by jkc2j; 03-08-2014 at 06:36 AM..
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