Ohio, pulled in two directions (Cleveland, Youngstown: transporting, public schools, living in)

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by SilkHammer

It may seem extreme to those on the far left. I'm extremely pleased that my state has been a bastion of sanity in a country where sanity is in short supply.

No, it's just extreme by just about any definition. It's on par with morality laws in the Middle East at this point.

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by Cleverfield

Ohio has always been a working class state, and its politics follow where the blue-collar workers are leaning. It's sad, but unfortunately the Democrats left the working class behind in favor of coastal elites, and the Republican swooped in to fill the void with a lying demagogue who made all kinds of false promises to the working class, while actually doing little to help them, and instead mostly just directing their anger at immigrants and "Democrat" cities that they cast as hell-holes. If Democrats want to win back these voters, we need more of them to start acting like Tim Ryan and Sherrod Brown, who focus less on the culture war issues and more on supporting blue-collar workers.

Can you explain how Dems "left the working class behind"? And what legislation has the GOP been supporting or passed that target the working class in recent years? How does banning trans from sports and making raped kids have babies benefit the working class, exactly? All these claims about how the Dems don't care about the working class anymore just seem like straight up baseless talking points.

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by SlideRules99

Trumbull County has shifted rightward as predominantly white middle class voters have turned away from a Democratic Party more focused on national culture wars and identity politics, than on working class labor and economic concerns.

And voters there are upset about inflation and chaos at the southern border. I cannot emphasize the latter enough…

While I am much more familiar with Trumbull Co., I suspect many other non-urban working class communities share these sentiments.

Dems may have a chance to recapture some hearts and minds by campaigning on local issues such as manufacturing/labor, and keeping a distance from transgender bathroom debates.

Further, the GOP over-reach on abortion could swing things a few points to the Dem side.

Funny how in the same post you can claim the Dems are engaging in divisive national culture wars and identity politics while also referring to the GOP extreme bans and the trans bans in bathrooms and sports. Or how about attacking libraries for featuring books which are deemed dangerous by the Right? Or how about "don't say gay" bills like in Florida? Or human trafficking asylum seekers for political stunts? It goes on and on. The Right is not some kind of innocent bystander.

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by TheProf

Diversity of political views is one thing. I can have an honest discussion and debate with a traditional Republican (supply-side economics; small government, reducing regulations, etc) and would welcome them into the neighborhood and marketplace of ideas. But this new MAGA, election-denying, Jan- 6 supporting far-right iteration of the GOP is beyond the pale. Not only are they not worthy of debate and not suitable for any neighborhood I want to live in; they should be watched by the authorities. Unfortunately, this is what Ohio and the Ohio GOP are morphing into ... Very dangerous.

Yep. We see too many people act like it's just simple policy disagreement that is causing divide. No, it's extremism. Most Dems in office are milquetoast moderates while an increasing number of GOP leaders/candidates are suggesting women shouldn't be allowed to vote, supporting national abortion bans, trashing immigrants and attacking democracy. I *really* wish we could have normal conversations about policy instead of all this.

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by EarthBound?

God, Guns and Guts is the term used by Patriots/Military meaning that that's what our Great and Beloved country was built on. Having more than one political party helps to keep a good and healthy balance to make her strong. We don't need a Hitler like president that claims that the other side is a threat. If they make that kind of statement, then they are the Hitler and need to be replaced.

1. America is not a Christian nation. The Founders would be absolutely appalled by this thinking. It's the last thing they wanted.
2. The 2nd is under no threat from Dems. It's just fearmongering nonsense at this point, especially since they've had plenty of opportunities to take your guns and didn't.
3. I don't even know what the 3rd one means.

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by SlideRules99

Conversely…

Can you not objectively see any Coastal political orientations or dynamics that, to many in the Industrial Heartland, might look “extreme and bizarre”?

I have many first-hand observations.

Otherwise, much of your thesis was good.

Edit: one example. ANTIFA spent summer 2020 fire-bombing police stations and Federal courthouses in Portland. In Nov 2020, a self-proclaimed ANTIFA member ran for Portland mayor and garnered 41% of the vote.

I'm trying to understand why being anti-fascism is bad. Weren't we during WWII? Also, ANTIFA didn't lead those protests.

[SlideRules99]

Originally Posted by jbcmh81

I'm trying to understand why being anti-fascism is bad. Weren't we during WWII? Also, ANTIFA didn't lead those protests.

I didn’t say “protests” and I didn’t specify “lead”.

Is it your belief that ANTIFA members did not participate in the string of destructive riots in Portland during 2020? The ones that carried on long after the BLM protests had subsided in virtually all other cities?

You may want to educate yourself. Here’s an example of an interview ABC News ran with Rose City ANTIFA members, justifying their use of violence in Portland.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/year-prote...ry?id=77511470

[ohio_peasant]

Originally Posted by SlideRules99

Can you not objectively see any Coastal political orientations or dynamics that, to many in the Industrial Heartland, might look “extreme and bizarre”?

Of course. The situation is symmetric. Which is another reason for strife and polarization.

Originally Posted by Unicorn hunter

I think it's a tragedy that politicians from both parties seem to have just ignored what happened to "Rust Belt" cities. For whatever reason, people here seem to only blame the Democratic Party.

The Democratic party was traditionally the party of unions, labor and the working-man. That was so, at least as recently as the 1988 election. If we hearken back to 1988, we'll perhaps note, that that was the last time, that the R and D parties nationally were traditionally aligned. Thereafter, we've had recombination and drift.

But Ohio’s bifurcation isn’t really a political problem, and neither is there a political solution. All over the Western World, the Heartland cities are receding while the capitals thrive. Look at Paris vs. the rest of France, or London vs. the rest of the UK. Look at the “yellow vest” protests and the rise of nationalist parties in France, or Brexit in the UK. Of what’s currently happening in Italy.

Well-paying blue collar jobs are mostly finished. Even as labor costs rise in China, factory-labor will shift to less expensive Asian countries, and eventually to Africa. A few weeks ago, I bought a pack of undershirts. The label said, “Made in Kenya”. Kenya! 100 years ago, the label would have said, “Made in North Carolina”.

It isn't a political problem, because this is how the global economy works. Liz Truss or Emanuel Macron can't do much for the people in Liverpool or Toulouse. Neither can the Ds or Rs, in Ohio or in Washington DC.

The exception to decline of well-paying blue collar jobs is in the defense industry. That can’t be offshored. Indeed, defense is the main sustenance of American industry. Blue collar or white collar, defense is what keeps Dayton, Ohio afloat. Imagine what would happen if Wright-Patterson closed. Defense is also a prime engine of prosperity in Heartland cities like the DFW region, and Seattle. Which brings us to…

Originally Posted by SlideRules99

Reminds me a lot of Seattle about 30 years or so ago.....before it became the "in" city and everything became so crowded and expensive. ...

Seattle has Boeing, and a large defense ecosystem. Los Angeles may be the world's movie capital, but it also still has a thriving aerospace industry... shops that do machining, welding and the like. Those shops are doing better than their counterparts in Dayton.

Seattle also has the coastal appeal of weather and, well, the coast. Ohio has the Lake Erie coast on the north, and the Ohio River on the south... but somehow neither has quite the appeal of the Pacific. Rightly or wrongly, the land between the western slopes of the Appalachians, and the approach to the Front Range of the Rockies, is viewed as the land of corn and soybean. It's not particularly desirable. Even the major cities (Chicago, Dallas) have to do something special to market themselves. Ohio can certainly compete with Iowa, but how would it compete with Washington State?

[SlideRules99]

Originally Posted by jbcmh81

Funny how in the same post you can claim the Dems are engaging in divisive national culture wars and identity politics while also referring to the GOP extreme bans and the trans bans in bathrooms and sports. Or how about attacking libraries for featuring books which are deemed dangerous by the Right? Or how about "don't say gay" bills like in Florida? Or human trafficking asylum seekers for political stunts? It goes on and on. The Right is not some kind of innocent bystander.

My response was specific to Trumbull County voters, and what does and doesn’t resonate with them, as it relates to their voting preferences.

Both sides have spent too much energy on national culture wars. The difference is that the Dems have taken the harder hits in counties like Trumbull and Mahoning.

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by SlideRules99

I didn’t say “protests” and I didn’t specify “lead”.

Is it your belief that ANTIFA members did not participate in the string of destructive riots in Portland during 2020? The ones that carried on long after the BLM protests had subsided in virtually all other cities?

You may want to educate yourself. Here’s an example of an interview ABC News ran with Rose City ANTIFA members, justifying their use of violence in Portland.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/year-prote...ry?id=77511470

I'm not even sure who ANTIFA are supposed to be. It's extremely decentralized as a movement with pretty much no organization or leadership, so it seems like a nebulous boogeyman to me that the Right just blames for everything they don't like. Did people who might call themselves ANTIFA take part in the protests? Yes, almost certainly. Were they remotely a majority? No. Were they responsible for the protests? No. Was there an some kind of national ANTIFA organization involved? No.

The vast majority of people involved in the 2020 protests were not rioting or causing violence. The minority that was, whether they were actually Leftists or ANTIFA or BLM, or opportunists, or even Right-wing instigators, do not represent what happened or why it happened. The only people who believe otherwise have an agenda of their own.