Jesus Christ of the Gospels Never Existed. He's a Myth and I Can Prove It (Part 1). (Commandment, testimony)
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Shut me up once and for all, Gldn: Tell us the name of a single secular historian who mentions the name "Jesus of Nazareth" in the 1st century that isn't controversial or questioned and I give my word I will not post part 2 of this topic.
What is this obsession with English names in ancient records in different languages? You really can't escape your modern mindset and expectations, can you?
Come on, Mike, you're nitpicking with me. So he mentions Peter. What about the other eleven? This was 98 CE supposedly. The gospels were already in circulation, again supposedly. Clement would have known about the other eleven. Why doesn't he mention at least a few of them? I know, I know. You're going to say the others had already left for their various missionary trips. But if the gospel writers know all of them by name 50 years after they departed why doesn't Clement just a few years later? So here's how I see it based just on the evidence:
1. no secular historians mentions Jesus and the 12
2. Clement doesn't mention the 12
3. no church father mentions the 12 in the first 120 years or so.
In short, there's absolutely no corroborating secular evidence for the existence of 12 apostles. I personally find it too coincidental that there were
12 tribes
12 brothers of Joseph
12 minor prophets in the OT
12 spies scouted the Promised Land.
12 baskets remained full.
12 cakes were placed in the Tabernacle.
What is this obsession with English names in ancient records in different languages? You really can't escape your modern mindset and expectations, can you?
That doesn't answer the question, Mystic. Can you do it, it's a simple request? We're only looking for ONE piece of corroborating secular evidence that Jesus was real:
Tell us the name of a single secular historian who mentions the name "Jesus of Nazareth" in the 1st century that isn't mired in controversy.
Come on, Mike, you're nitpicking with me. So he mentions Peter. What about the other eleven? This was 98 CE supposedly. The gospels were already in circulation, again supposedly. Clement would have known about the other eleven. Why doesn't he mention at least a few of them?
Does it matter? You're placing an unreasonable burden of explanation onto me of something that isn't even relevant. He didn't mention them in his letter because he didn't have any reason to. It's no more complicated than that. All kinds of people and things are left unmentioned in all kinds of writings. It's irrelevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
In short, there's absolutely no corroborating secular evidence for the existence of 12 apostles.
Except for the existence of the Church, which you don't acknowledge as evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
I personally find it too coincidental that there were
12 tribes
12 brothers of Joseph
12 minor prophets in the OT
12 spies scouted the Promised Land.
12 baskets remained full.
12 cakes were placed in the Tabernacle.
Does it matter? You're placing an unreasonable burden of explanation onto me of something that isn't even relevant. He didn't mention them in his letter because he didn't have any reason to. It's no more complicated than that. All kinds of people and things are left unmentioned in all kinds of writings. It's irrelevant.
Yes, yes of course. That's the standard answer Christians give when they haven't anything better. I read the exact same excuse here:
"You will see that there was no occasion in the letter to mention the names of apostles that Clement met. There are tens of thousands of things that Clement did not mention. He did not mention his mother. He did not mention who was emperor at the time."
So Clement didn't mention his mother. He didn't mention his brother. He didn't mention the color of his shower tile. He didn't mention how many bedrooms his church-owned mansion had. On and on and yet he did feel a need to mention TWO apostles! He says Paul went to his martyrdom, Peter went to his martyrdom--but the fact according to apologists today is that all other 10 not mentioned went to their martyrdom, right? So if Josh MacDowell knows exactly how ALL the apostles were martyred and he is living 2000 years after all this, don't you think Clement would have known as well just a few short decades later?
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
Except for the existence of the Church, which you don't acknowledge as evidence.
Well, I asked the question of someone earlier: if the Christian church is evidence Jesus was real, then isn't the existence of Islam evidence Allah is real? And isn't the existence of Hinduism evidence Vishnu and Krishna are real?
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
No. Numerology is a thing. Numbers have meaning.
Exactly! Thank you. So Jesus couldn't have had 11 apostles and he couldn't have had 13. According to Jewish numerology Jesus had to have exactly 12 apostles. All this would have been much more believable if the number of apostles had been 13, but the fact the gospel writers made the number 12 just like the zodiac and just like a dozen other "12's" is pretty suspicious, don't you think?
Tell us the the name of a single secular historian who mentions the name "Jesus of Nazareth" in the 1st century that isn't controversial or questioned and I give my word I will not post part 2 of this topic.
The Bible is metaphorical and allegorical...you argue against it from a literal basis, and horribly slam and insult those that embrace it and the Theology it represents.
You are just like Fred Phelps.
You have over a third of the world against your philippics.
By the way: Merry CHRISTmas Season to you!!
Answer this question: Why is it going to be "2023"?
The Bible is metaphorical and allegorical...you argue against it from a literal basis, and horribly slam and insult those that embrace it and the Theology it represents.
You are just like Fred Phelps.
You have over a third of the world against your philippics.
By the way: Merry CHRISTmas Season to you!!
Answer this question: Why is it going to be "2023"?
I want people to notice that when I make a simple request to Gldn:
Tell us the name of a single secular historian who mentions the name "Jesus of Nazareth" in the 1st century that isn't mired in controversy
he just dances around the question with lots of unrelated nonsense just like his other two compadres, Thoreau and BaptistFundie. Can you imagine, people? I've asked THREE Christians---count 'em, THREE to give one simple secular historical reference to Jesus that might at least demonstrate he was real
And not a single one of them can do it!
Pathetic, truly pathetic.
I'd have better luck getting a legitimate reply out of the Three Stooges.
Well, I asked the question of someone earlier: if the Christian church is evidence Jesus was real, then isn't the existence of Islam evidence Allah is real? And isn't the existence of Hinduism evidence Vishnu and Krishna are real?
I would say that the existence of Islam is evidence that Mohammed was real.
And the existence of Hinduism is evidence that a spiritual world exists.
I would say that the existence of Islam is evidence that Muhammed was real.
And the existence of Hinduism (as with virtually all religions) is evidence that a spiritual world exists.
Why so selective, Mike? Keep things equal. Jesus is God incarnate, that's what the Bible says. Krishna is Vishnu incarnate.
Is the existence of Hinduism and a billion followers evidence Krishna is real just like the existence of Christianity is evidence Jesus is real?
Last edited by thrillobyte; 11-21-2022 at 01:36 PM..
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