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First rule of debate is "Never put forth a hypothesis for which you haven't got an adequate defense if someone should challenge it." I ask what possible spiritual growth could occur in a stillborn or an infant dying a horrible senseless murder. Mystic obviously cannot answer such a question because the premise God is concerned solely with the spiritual growth of a human who didn't even have a chance at spiritual growth is therefore ridiculous on its face. Just one more example of Christians not thinking through a premise its own absurd conclusion.
That so...?
What are the 5 steps in a debate?
The five steps are as follows:
Introduction. Express your message and why it's important to your audience, as well as yourself.
Statement of fact. Break down the general thesis of your argument into smaller parts. ...
Confirmation, or proof. ...
Refutation. ...
Conclusion.
It isn't my interpretation of the term. I'm referring to the very common definition found in just about any dictionary...
Atheist: a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
It's your interpretation that stretches the bounds a bit, to the point of what seems a want to have it both ways. If you have a belief that "whatever higher power created this world still owes us at the least some evidence it exists even if it's going to stubbornly refuse to touch us in any way," then I'd say you are more in the agnostic camp than atheist. I'd also say you really can't have it both ways unless you just want to continue to confuse matters here.
To be more definitive as I prefer and/or as most atheists might explain, I don't bother with the acknowledgement something exists if there is no evidence or proof that thing exists. I don't acknowledge that you are supernatural or a higher power in exactly the same way. For exactly the same reasons.
I just see the argument that whatever god(s) there be "owe" us something to be so pointless. First of all, it is unlikely any hypothetical god(s) give a fig. Secondly, I have become utterly convinced that god, the universe, life or even really other people owe me exactly zilch. I am not entitled. It's nice, if you can get it, to have a little validation and respect and loyalty from people you actually know exist via your own eyeballs, particularly if you're giving those things to them and they would just be reciprocating. But even that is dicey. There is ultimately only pain and suffering and sorrow in trying to hold others to your standards of human interaction. It is better to let people be as they are, apart from having healthy personal boundaries.
So this holding responsible some supreme being that as a deist or agnostic you are not even claiming is intervening in human affairs or your affairs personally is just a way to make yourself more miserable than you already are. I think it likely that folks like Thrill will still be screaming into the void in 5 or 10 or 20 years -- and to what end?
I let all these "should[n't] be's" go a long time ago and it has paid huge dividends.
FWIW. But ... given Thrill's hypothetical, sure, any being who put us in this world unasked for has some 'splainin' to do. I just don't expect it to ever happen.
I think the instinctual part just comes from what was modeled for them by other believers, particularly their parents and spiritual leaders. I never really considered the dishonesty of those evasions because it was basically unthinkable that the people dong it were dishonest people.
And of course when I say "dishonest people" I do not mean totally dishonest in all things. You cannot be honest with me if you can't be honest with yourself. And people are taught to lie to themselves about certain things from the cradle, and aren't even aware that they're doing it. My parents for example were not fundamentally dishonest but could not be honest with themselves and therefore not with me either, on the particular subject of theism and our faith.
I read an interesting essay just yesterday that you can tell that people have been brainwashed when they just keep repeating the same things over and over again, even in the face of overwhelming evidence that it is either wrong or unsupportable. This simply reflects that the human brain finds what is repeated often enough to be believable. The younger you start repeating certain tropes like "Mysterious Ways", the more entrenched it becomes and the more mindlessly it's defended.
When I was a believer, a Christian, I could have answered all these questions with total confidence and complete honesty, including the simple fact that I couldn't always explain what God was up to. Nothing dishonest about any of that. No more dishonest than anything I try to explain in the way of my beliefs now as an atheist. The reasons we have these differences are simply not reconcilable with facts, reason and logic. It's that simple really.
I think it was coming to this understanding that also forced me to become an atheist now that I think about it...
While the climate crisis now has something of a life of its own and is causing knock on effects that are exacerbating the unvirtuous cycle that we are in, and while one can make a convincing argument that in many respects it's "too late" -- I cannot accept the notion that there is literally nothing we can do. Of course there is. At this point it will probably only mitigate the worst effects and shorten the time of cataclysm that we now face before things could start to settle down. But every step we take is almost certainly going to save or ease a life here and there. We must not give up like that.
I just took delivery of a couple of solar generators and portable solar panels. I should be able to generate a few hundred watt-hours a day of extra, carbon-free power for my household with these by taking certain systems off-grid -- things like my water heater, land line telephone, internet routers and ethernet switches, my home office itself. As a bonus I can keep these things (or maybe, say, the fridge) up and running in an extended power outage of many hours, which are becoming more commonplace and can be expected to become more common generally.
I already have rooftop solar, but it doesn't work when the grid goes down and I can't afford whole-house battery backup and extra inverter to allow it to function independently of that. So, more redundancy, less carbon footprint, more $ saved. Benefits to us, and to others.
If we give up then we don't even do what little we can.
If we look at the many ways we humans have "cleaned up our act" over the course of history, there is good reason to be optimistic we can make a positive difference going forward. No reason to think not anyway, and in the case of climate change, even if we have gone past a point of return, you can bet we're all going to be dealing with the challenges of climate change going forward in defensive ways. So either way we'll be called upon to figure out ways to mitigate the effects, and to a large extent safe lives in the process.
"People don't change because they see the light. They change because they feel the heat."
We too have the solar panels on our roof and an EV. Haven't had much the problem of the grid going down other than very short power outages on rare occasions. That a more common problem for you?
Introduction. Express your message and why it's important to your audience, as well as yourself.
Statement of fact. Break down the general thesis of your argument into smaller parts. ...
Confirmation, or proof. ...
Refutation. ...
Conclusion.
Okay, bad choice of words. Let's say discussion. So let me run the question by you since Mystic has apparently put me on ignore and taken a powder, which doesn't make a bit of difference to me frankly, but I'd still like to get the question answered, preferably by a Christian but you'll have to do :
what possible spiritual growth could occur in a stillborn or an infant dying a horrible senseless murder?
I just see the argument that whatever god(s) there be "owe" us something to be so pointless. First of all, it is unlikely any hypothetical god(s) give a fig. Secondly, I have become utterly convinced that god, the universe, life or even really other people owe me exactly zilch. I am not entitled. It's nice, if you can get it, to have a little validation and respect and loyalty from people you actually know exist via your own eyeballs, particularly if you're giving those things to them and they would just be reciprocating. But even that is dicey. There is ultimately only pain and suffering and sorrow in trying to hold others to your standards of human interaction. It is better to let people be as they are, apart from having healthy personal boundaries.
So this holding responsible some supreme being that as a deist or agnostic you are not even claiming is intervening in human affairs or your affairs personally is just a way to make yourself more miserable than you already are. I think it likely that folks like Thrill will still be screaming into the void in 5 or 10 or 20 years -- and to what end?
I let all these "should[n't] be's" go a long time ago and it has paid huge dividends.
FWIW. But ... given Thrill's hypothetical, sure, any being who put us in this world unasked for has some 'splainin' to do. I just don't expect it to ever happen.
One thing is what other people owe us, or that we might hold other people responsible for. Sure. Quite another thing to suggest some imaginary creator owes us anything or is responsible for anything...
Discussions about the former can be somewhat productive and worthwhile. Discussions about the latter are what is utterly so pointless.
Okay, bad choice of words. Let's say discussion. So let me run the question by you since Mystic has apparently put me on ignore and taken a powder, which doesn't make a bit of difference to me frankly, but I'd still like to get the question answered, preferably by a Christian but you'll have to do :
what possible spiritual growth could occur in a stillborn or an infant dying a horrible senseless murder?
Well now you are encouraging me to get into this whole "what is God doing" debate or, uh..., err... discussion...
For you, however, I'll waste more time.
Especially for those who will argue about the "life" that is being experienced by a fetus, or infant dying a horrible senseless murder, those fleeting nano-seconds of existence can be felt to be entire life times when considered in the realm of divinity. During that period of time that is frankly unlimited and immeasurable, anything is possible. Just like you seem willing to admit anything is possible when it comes to the great creator.
"What's good for the goose is good for the gander" is an expression that comes to mind here. Again, you just can't have it both ways! That or you just simply have to accept both ways. Right?
Well now you are encouraging me to get into this whole "what is God doing" debate or, uh..., err... discussion...
For you, however, I'll waste more time.
Especially for those who will argue about the "life" that is being experienced by a fetus, or infant dying a horrible senseless murder, those fleeting nano-seconds of existence can be felt to be entire life times when considered in the realm of divinity. During that period of time that is frankly unlimited and immeasurable, anything is possible. Just like you seem willing to admit anything is possible when it comes to the great creator.
"What's good for the goose is good for the gander" is an expression that comes to mind here. Again, you just can't have it both ways! That or you just simply have to accept both ways. Right?
Wait a second. I never said anything about a fetus. Let's confine it to infants then. "What possible spiritual growth could a 1-year-old infant who dies of a congenital heart defect experience", since Mystic insists his pagan god yahweh is only interested in spiritual growth, so by extension Yahweh is not interested in physical growth.
Wait a second. I never said anything about a fetus. Let's confine it to infants then. "What possible spiritual growth could a 1-year-old infant who dies of a congenital heart defect experience", since Mystic insists his pagan god yahweh is only interested in spiritual growth, so by extension Yahweh is not interested in physical growth.
Are we not paying attention or is this another case of very selective attention? AKA confirmation bias...
As explained before, "those fleeting nano-seconds of existence can be felt to be entire life times when considered in the realm of divinity. During that period of time that is frankly unlimited and immeasurable, anything is possible." No matter whether it's a fetus or an infant or a young child. Or why in God's name not?
In the realm of the divine, time is not an issue or factor, and NO ONE can possibly guess let alone say what Yahweh is up to! Give it up, Thrill. This game of playing both sides to the middle is simply not logical, reasonable or tenable in this arena you want to suggest might exist but refuse to accept how. In the realm of divinity, truly anything is possible! Beyond even YOUR comprehension!
The Christians seem to have cut and run. I would just like to cap off their desertion by asking them:
The Bible describes Yahweh as saying to the israelites, "I the Lord your god am a JEALOUS god, visiting punishment to the 4th generation of those that sin against me bla bla". Someone please explain to me how a god who supposedly created the universe...I mean this guy can literally hold a dozen galaxies in the palm of his hand....how this god can be bigger than our universe yet he acts like an immature adolescent girl when a guy she has a crush on makes goo-goo eyes at another girl.
I mean has anyone ever heard anything more ridiculous than a god acting like a spoiled little brat?
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