Atheism As A REJECTION OF--Not Disbelief In--An Evil God (hell, atheist, agnostics)
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Exactly. If gldn wants to be on a forum where a person can shout their beliefs and not have others be allowed to aggressively engage the person on those beliefs, or conversely be on a forum where a person cannot state their criticism of a religion to no one in particular then he should be hanging out on the Christian subforum. Instead it appears he hangs out here solely to attack people for doing what the forum was designed to do--to allow people to state their dissatisfaction with principles of certain religions. I rarely see gldn post something starting with "I believe...." and then stating what he believes. He is always reacting to a post, the contents of which he doesn't like or agree with. 95% of his posts on this thread have been attacks on others for their opinions of the faults of Christianity. If there IS one in this thread where he's stating his opinion without quoting somebody else please point it out to me. It may have slipped by me.
Lets compare what he does to what others do.
what percentage of post from others is attacking religion? And, can we apply what you are saying here to them?
For me, I keep to my beliefs. I question people in my ranks first. Can we spot our fundy think types and address them like we ask of theists.
Nobody is "shouting out their Beliefs" here.
There is those that tell of, and exchange about, their Religious and/or Spiritual Beliefs...as one would figure on a forum titled as this is.
The Atheists can (and IMO, should) certainly join in and respectfully inquire...or even note that they hold no Religious and/or Spiritual Beliefs or Faith themselves.
That is different from negative judgments, replete with disrespectful slams levied upon those Religious and/or Spiritual Beliefs, the Deities, the Organizations, and the Adherents for embracing their Faith.
This is why I have suggested that these kinda negatively judgmental posts(that will reap their appropriate "Karma") are not answered.
I've never asked any Atheist here why they are Atheist...I already know all the reasons, explanations, and arguments...I was Atheist myself for my entire adult life.
And I never got on anyone's case about their Faith/Beliefs...and every Religion going was all around me,
Remember gld ... if you're attacking religion its questioning.
If you question atheist its attacking and shouting and not questioning.
Its fundy think atheism.
Some of them believe calling out fundy think atheism is division, for practical anti-religion reason ... they believe, on a belief site none the less, that FFR should always be the primary focus in religious looking atheism.
I am critical of initiated criticism and insults.
It is true...I am baised against bias...and intolerant of intolerance.
Nobody owes anybody any explanation whatsoever of why they have the Beliefs & Faith they do...NONE.
And they should be able to hold those Beliefs and have that Faith, and express it, without judgement, criticism, or insult of those Beliefs & Faith or them for holding such.
Show respect for other people and what they perceive as Holy, Sacred, and Divine.
However, no one's belief should be so sacred and untouchable that it cannot be analyzed, discussed, debated, and yes, even criticized, mocked, made fun of, and laughed at.
Religion has held this place of unearned respect for hundreds - if not thousands - of years and those days are finally coming to an end. Religion should be treated no differently than political views, a person's taste in music, literature, movies, food, etc. etc.
If you're willing to put your religious beliefs "out there" then expect some people to debate them, disagree with them, and make fun of them.
I agree that you are under no obligation to explain WHY you hold the beliefs that you do. It's your business and therefore it's up to you how much you share or don't share with others.
But religion itself - the doctrine, the dogma, the history, the rules, the beliefs - none of those things should be off limits. Not in a free society, at any rate. The moment I feel I'm living in a Christian authoritarian theocracy is the moment I'm on a plane to somewhere else. And that might not be far off at this point considering what might happen to Roe v. Wade (and no, this isn't an invitation to discuss abortion).
You say "Show respect for other people and what they perceive as Holy, Sacret, and Divine."
No.
That's merely an end-run around the 1st Amendment. You do not have the right to not be offended, angered, flummoxed, confused, or enraged by someone else's opinion.
I can certainly have respect for other people - but respect is earned, as we all know, and religion has not earned my respect. One of my biggest pet peeves here and elsewhere is when atheists are told we are not allowed to express our side of the argument because it offends believers. Of course, no one ever stops to think whether religion is offensive to we non-believers. Right?
Remember gld ... if you're attacking religion its questioning.
If you question atheist its attacking and shouting and not questioning.
Its fundy think atheism.
Some of them believe calling out fundy think atheism is division, for practical anti-religion reason ... they believe, on a belief site none the less, that FFR should always be the primary focus in religious looking atheism.
That's utter BS.
What's ridiculously ironic is that, by writing the post you have, you are doing precisely the same thing to atheists as you accuse atheists of doing to believers.
And I'm quite certain you wouldn't want me to call you out for hypocrisy. Would you?
However, no one's belief should be so sacred and untouchable that it cannot be analyzed, discussed, debated, and yes, even criticized, mocked, made fun of, and laughed at.
Religion has held this place of unearned respect for hundreds - if not thousands - of years and those days are finally coming to an end. Religion should be treated no differently than political views, a person's taste in music, literature, movies, food, etc. etc.
If you're willing to put your religious beliefs "out there" then expect some people to debate them, disagree with them, and make fun of them.
I agree that you are under no obligation to explain WHY you hold the beliefs that you do. It's your business and therefore it's up to you how much you share or don't share with others.
But religion itself - the doctrine, the dogma, the history, the rules, the beliefs - none of those things should be off limits. Not in a free society, at any rate. The moment I feel I'm living in a Christian authoritarian theocracy is the moment I'm on a plane to somewhere else. And that might not be far off at this point considering what might happen to Roe v. Wade (and no, this isn't an invitation to discuss abortion).
You say "Show respect for other people and what they perceive as Holy, Sacret, and Divine."
No.
That's merely an end-run around the 1st Amendment. You do not have the right to not be offended, angered, flummoxed, confused, or enraged by someone else's opinion.
I can certainly have respect for other people - but respect is earned, as we all know, and religion has not earned my respect. One of my biggest pet peeves here and elsewhere is when atheists are told we are not allowed to express our side of the argument because it offends believers. Of course, no one ever stops to think whether religion is offensive to we non-believers. Right?
Just sayin'
I agree with your post, with the exception of what I bolded. One does have the right to freedom of thought.
Respect is not really what a couple of these people are talking about. Deference is what they really desire. I've given some examples before, but I'll repeat a couple of them. When people have invited me to dinner a couple of times, even knowing that I was a Buddhist, they would urge me to actively participate in THEIR favorite christian before-dinner prayer. That is not respecting someone else's religion. Particularly when, at the end of the christian prayer I added, "To the Buddha I go for refuge. To the Dhamma I go for refuge. To the Sangha I go for refuge"...and was criticized for saying that. More than once proselytizers have told me that if I did not accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior that I would go to hell. That is not respecting someone else's religion. Watching American tourists...twice...urinate on Buddha statues, not to mention climbing on Buddha statues...is not respecting someone else's religion.
This is a public forum, not a christian forum. I don't visit christian forums. I have only gone up in the christian forum here perhaps 3-5 times in the last several years. That's their territory (even though under the rules of the forum, all are welcome to post there). But in this part of the forum we are free to discuss spirituality and religion. Its pros and cons. Its good points and its bad points. And not be a christian is a valid spiritual position. Not being a christian is a valid religious position.
The question I have is -- why are some of the christians (and other godists) so very afraid, particularly considering that they believe that they have the only all-powerful and all-knowing being on their side. The forum is very generous to all posters; through its structure it says, 'If you don't like Phetaroi's posts, if his posts really bother you, you can just put him on ignore. It'll only take you seconds to do so'. And yet...
However, no one's belief should be so sacred and untouchable that it cannot be analyzed, discussed, debated, and yes, even criticized, mocked, made fun of, and laughed at.
Religion has held this place of unearned respect for hundreds - if not thousands - of years and those days are finally coming to an end. Religion should be treated no differently than political views, a person's taste in music, literature, movies, food, etc. etc.
If you're willing to put your religious beliefs "out there" then expect some people to debate them, disagree with them, and make fun of them.
I agree that you are under no obligation to explain WHY you hold the beliefs that you do. It's your business and therefore it's up to you how much you share or don't share with others.
But religion itself - the doctrine, the dogma, the history, the rules, the beliefs - none of those things should be off limits. Not in a free society, at any rate. The moment I feel I'm living in a Christian authoritarian theocracy is the moment I'm on a plane to somewhere else. And that might not be far off at this point considering what might happen to Roe v. Wade (and no, this isn't an invitation to discuss abortion).
You say "Show respect for other people and what they perceive as Holy, Sacret, and Divine."
No.
That's merely an end-run around the 1st Amendment. You do not have the right to not be offended, angered, flummoxed, confused, or enraged by someone else's opinion.
I can certainly have respect for other people - but respect is earned, as we all know, and religion has not earned my respect. One of my biggest pet peeves here and elsewhere is when atheists are told we are not allowed to express our side of the argument because it offends believers. Of course, no one ever stops to think whether religion is offensive to we non-believers. Right?
Just sayin'
Well, said. Also if a mod hasn't commented in red then you know you haven't crossed the line. I don't recall ever being called out by a mod for my criticisms--in the last 9 months or so anyway, but gldn by his own admission regularly has his posts deleted by mods for their inflammatory content.
However, no one's belief should be so sacred and untouchable that it cannot be analyzed, discussed, debated, and yes, even criticized, mocked, made fun of, and laughed at.
Religion has held this place of unearned respect for hundreds - if not thousands - of years and those days are finally coming to an end. Religion should be treated no differently than political views, a person's taste in music, literature, movies, food, etc. etc.
If you're willing to put your religious beliefs "out there" then expect some people to debate them, disagree with them, and make fun of them.
I agree that you are under no obligation to explain WHY you hold the beliefs that you do. It's your business and therefore it's up to you how much you share or don't share with others.
But religion itself - the doctrine, the dogma, the history, the rules, the beliefs - none of those things should be off limits. Not in a free society, at any rate. The moment I feel I'm living in a Christian authoritarian theocracy is the moment I'm on a plane to somewhere else. And that might not be far off at this point considering what might happen to Roe v. Wade (and no, this isn't an invitation to discuss abortion).
You say "Show respect for other people and what they perceive as Holy, Sacret, and Divine."
No.
That's merely an end-run around the 1st Amendment. You do not have the right to not be offended, angered, flummoxed, confused, or enraged by someone else's opinion.
I can certainly have respect for other people - but respect is earned, as we all know, and religion has not earned my respect. One of my biggest pet peeves here and elsewhere is when atheists are told we are not allowed to express our side of the argument because it offends believers. Of course, no one ever stops to think whether religion is offensive to we non-believers. Right?
Just sayin'
I believe many things that others don't...others believe many things I don't.
It is my stance that the views and beliefs of others relative to Politics, Art, Food, and even Religion/Spirituality should be accepted as their differing views & perspective and tolerated...certainly not criticized, mocked, made fun of, and laughed at.
That's what bullies and tyrants do to "others" due to "differences"...and it just breeds division, strife, hate, opposition, and violence. Very little good ever comes of it.
Respectful analysis, discussion, & even debate...understood and even encouraged. Bashing, mocking, and insults...not cool.
Not only that...in this supposedly free and civilized society...many "classes" are protected against bias & discrimination.
A individuals Ethnicity, Race, Gender, Disability, Age, Sexual Orientation, and Religious Beliefs are all "protected' against biased treatment in various situations.
It is typically understood that it is not cool to express bias toward others about any of that...and that is my understanding.
I really despise Calvinism, to me it represents the worst of Christianity.
God did not send his Son to save only a few.
To me such theology is just as bad as saying a fallen away Christian, was never a Christian to begin with.
I was just reading one of Ray Comfort’s tweets this morning.
What complete and utter garbage.
Yes, but that is the inference you have to take when taking the principles of the NT in their entirety. God answers some prayers but not most prayers. That's a fact according to Christians--that he answers their prayers. But we see many more praying and receiving no response. Jesus said the way to life is narrow but the way to destruction is wide and Paul said God has made vessels of mercy and vessels made for destruction. What else can we conclude from such teachings except a salvation for a few and damnation for the rest?
Nobody is "shouting out their Beliefs" here.
There is those that tell of, and exchange about, their Religious and/or Spiritual Beliefs...as one would figure on a forum titled as this is.
The Atheists can (and IMO, should) certainly join in and respectfully inquire...or even note that they hold no Religious and/or Spiritual Beliefs or Faith themselves.
That is different from negative judgments, replete with disrespectful slams levied upon those Religious and/or Spiritual Beliefs, the Deities, the Organizations, and the Adherents for embracing their Faith.
This is why I have suggested that these kinda negatively judgmental posts(that will reap their appropriate "Karma") are not answered.
I've never asked any Atheist here why they are Atheist...I already know all the reasons, explanations, and arguments...I was Atheist myself for my entire adult life.
And I never got on anyone's case about their Faith/Beliefs...and every Religion going was all around me,
No ... again, no, no, no.
Gldn, I'm disappointed in you. I was hoping you would not go the way of so many believers here and try and tell we atheists to essentially "sit down and shut up." Alas, you've decided to drink the Kool-Aid along with several other believers who somehow got too big for their britches and think they have some special right to dictate to we atheists what we can and can't say.
So let's be really clear here. You have a sub-forum for every single major belief system. No doubt the mods would add any sub-forum for any other religion someone may wish to discuss. On the same vein, we atheists have the Atheists & Agnostics forum. In THOSE forums is where you can politely ask questions and be respectful to someone's faith. Not that believers have been particularly respectful to we atheists in our sub-forum, but whatever.
THIS forum ... the one we are currently talking within ... THIS forum is fair game.
What you're doing is placing a carte blanche ban on anything negative ... AT ALL ... being spoken about religion here on this forum. Any post that a believer even perceives as being offensive should be deleted forthwith and perhaps the author suffering a penalty as well. Considering the number of believers who sees anything negative spoken of about religion as a personal attack - yeah - why would any atheist want to stay here?
So we can sit in the dark corners of this forum while we watch the believers fall upon each other like wolves as each religion and each denomination begins to disagree with each other? Then what? Do you make even more rules segregating between who can be offensive and who cannot?
Because you have no idea how much about religion I find offensive. You would take away my voice, my right to express MY outrage at those things. Instead, I would have to sit here and read post after post of believers condemning people to hell, spreading misinformation about atheists, telling we atheists what we think and what we believe, getting into fun little back-n-forths with each other about how silly we atheists are for not believing, and ... that's just the surface of it.
Never mind the stuff I find REALLY offensive - but can i say any of it? No. Because I'm not allowed. I have to be respectful of YOUR beliefs whilst you do not have to show the same consideration for MINE.
Because in your world, your feelings are more important than mine. I guess we atheists aren't deserving of being treated with respect. Because trust me I've dealt with a whole lot of disrespect on this forum. Lots. Most of the time I just let it go so I don't sidetrack my argument. I only wish believers could have the same thickness of skin. The big reason why I don't post here much anymore is because of the attitude you just displayed.
In fact, I find this whole attitude displayed by an increasing number of believers here to be HIGHLY offensive. Because what it does is turn atheists and other non-believers into 2nd class citizens on this forum. Believers can say whatever they want - including verbally smacking around non-believers or reveling in their bigotry against everyone from gays to liberals. And we can say nothing in return because *gasp* WE might be offensive. What a joke.
No matter how long I'm gone - whether it's a few months or over a year - I ALWAYS come back to this exact same argument. And more and more believers are taking up this mindset - which means my time here is already on a clock. Every time I come back, more and more believers are demanding that atheists no longer criticize their religion ... AT ALL.
This forum has already been diminished by leaps and bounds once the rules against discussing religion and politics or religion and science were put in place. This nonsense is a bridge too far.
Gldn, I'm disappointed in you. I was hoping you would not go the way of so many believers here and try and tell we atheists to essentially "sit down and shut up." Alas, you've decided to drink the Kool-Aid along with several other believers who somehow got too big for their britches and think they have some special right to dictate to we atheists what we can and can't say.
So let's be really clear here. You have a sub-forum for every single major belief system. No doubt the mods would add any sub-forum for any other religion someone may wish to discuss. On the same vein, we atheists have the Atheists & Agnostics forum. In THOSE forums is where you can politely ask questions and be respectful to someone's faith. Not that believers have been particularly respectful to we atheists in our sub-forum, but whatever.
THIS forum ... the one we are currently talking within ... THIS forum is fair game.
What you're doing is placing a carte blanche ban on anything negative ... AT ALL ... being spoken about religion here on this forum. Any post that a believer even perceives as being offensive should be deleted forthwith and perhaps the author suffering a penalty as well. Considering the number of believers who sees anything negative spoken of about religion as a personal attack - yeah - why would any atheist want to stay here?
So we can sit in the dark corners of this forum while we watch the believers fall upon each other like wolves as each religion and each denomination begins to disagree with each other? Then what? Do you make even more rules segregating between who can be offensive and who cannot?
Because you have no idea how much about religion I find offensive. You would take away my voice, my right to express MY outrage at those things. Instead, I would have to sit here and read post after post of believers condemning people to hell, spreading misinformation about atheists, telling we atheists what we think and what we believe, getting into fun little back-n-forths with each other about how silly we atheists are for not believing, and ... that's just the surface of it.
Never mind the stuff I find REALLY offensive - but can i say any of it? No. Because I'm not allowed. I have to be respectful of YOUR beliefs whilst you do not have to show the same consideration for MINE.
Because in your world, your feelings are more important than mine. I guess we atheists aren't deserving of being treated with respect. Because trust me I've dealt with a whole lot of disrespect on this forum. Lots. Most of the time I just let it go so I don't sidetrack my argument. I only wish believers could have the same thickness of skin. The big reason why I don't post here much anymore is because of the attitude you just displayed.
In fact, I find this whole attitude displayed by an increasing number of believers here to be HIGHLY offensive. Because what it does is turn atheists and other non-believers into 2nd class citizens on this forum. Believers can say whatever they want - including verbally smacking around non-believers or reveling in their bigotry against everyone from gays to liberals. And we can say nothing in return because *gasp* WE might be offensive. What a joke.
No matter how long I'm gone - whether it's a few months or over a year - I ALWAYS come back to this exact same argument. And more and more believers are taking up this mindset - which means my time here is already on a clock. Every time I come back, more and more believers are demanding that atheists no longer criticize their religion ... AT ALL.
This forum has already been diminished by leaps and bounds once the rules against discussing religion and politics or religion and science were put in place. This nonsense is a bridge too far.
Shirina, beware. I believe Gldn is deliberately baiting us in an attempt to get this thread shut down. I still have much to say on the thread's topic.
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