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Either way...Problem of Evil/Suffering arguments against that God fail from a logical standpoint...and it is just a angst and depression inducing waste of time to even think on it, let alone go off about it.
The only thing logical is to explain the artistic quality of the writings to those that take it or argue it from a literal basis.
That's not how it works, Gldn. All you're doing is trying to get us atheists to shut up by coming at it from a different angle.
So let me explain it this way - yet again.
Whether someone believes God is the literal anthropomorphic being the Bible claims exists - or - whether someone believes the stories are metaphorical.
The issue here is that the concept of God exists - and as such - you have a lot of people doing and saying all kinds of crazy, even ugly things - and claiming their actions and words are coming straight from God.
It doesn't MATTER whether they're really coming from God. Those crackpots believe it. And even if they don't, there are lots of people who do.
In that way, these stories will always be a problem for people trying to live in the 21st Century free from the supertitions, fears, bigotries, prejudices, hatreds, and misogyny of the Palestinian Bronze Age. Even today, because of the Adam and Eve story, whenever our country faces a hardship, you have throngs of televangelists, fundamentalists, and Christian fanatics and Jesus Taliban wackos claiming it's because of our sin and we're all being punished.
What makes it worse is then these fanatics, wackos, zealots and their followers start looking for who is to blame - right now, they want to blame abortion for all of our troubles. But even if they manage to ban abortion nationwide, guess what. Our country will still have troubles. So the process starts again. If not abortion, then what? Well, they'll target the gays next, yet again. Then trans people. Atheists. Immigrants. Muslims. Yep. That's how it starts.
And it's all because the Bible gives people this stoopid idea that God sits around punishing entire nations because two guys got it on in a men's restroom in Racine, Wisconsin.
This debate over god is not just an academic argument. People actually vote based on this nonsense. Our laws and policies can be shaped by asinine superstitions from 3,000 years ago. I want to live in a country that is going forward - not one still clinging to the ancient past. Because one day we'll look up and find ourselves to be the global pariah.
Ya know why it's God? Because of my perception of it as such. And once I do that...it IS God...and, thus, God does exist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
The place that everyone gets all the info about the Entity you describe, and all about the fantastical attributes this Entity possesses (if argued or taken literally)...also provides all the answers to any questions.
I asked the question to you (or any other poster) relative to the thread. It’s a reasonable/simple question (and it’s spot on topic). Hence I’ll ask again (below), since you’re one who believes in a god (and you ignored it in your response, above). Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy
Philosophically, (it’s logical reasoning to question) why there would be an all-powerful creator who controls/manipulates (and ultimately is responsible for) our world and all people in it? To what purpose?
That's not how it works, Gldn. All you're doing is trying to get us atheists to shut up by coming at it from a different angle.
So let me explain it this way - yet again.
Whether someone believes God is the literal anthropomorphic being the Bible claims exists - or - whether someone believes the stories are metaphorical.
The issue here is that the concept of God exists - and as such - you have a lot of people doing and saying all kinds of crazy, even ugly things - and claiming their actions and words are coming straight from God.
It doesn't MATTER whether they're really coming from God. Those crackpots believe it. And even if they don't, there are lots of people who do.
In that way, these stories will always be a problem for people trying to live in the 21st Century free from the supertitions, fears, bigotries, prejudices, hatreds, and misogyny of the Palestinian Bronze Age. Even today, because of the Adam and Eve story, whenever our country faces a hardship, you have throngs of televangelists, fundamentalists, and Christian fanatics and Jesus Taliban wackos claiming it's because of our sin and we're all being punished.
What makes it worse is then these fanatics, wackos, zealots and their followers start looking for who is to blame - right now, they want to blame abortion for all of our troubles. But even if they manage to ban abortion nationwide, guess what. Our country will still have troubles. So the process starts again. If not abortion, then what? Well, they'll target the gays next, yet again. Then trans people. Atheists. Immigrants. Muslims. Yep. That's how it starts.
And it's all because the Bible gives people this stoopid idea that God sits around punishing entire nations because two guys got it on in a men's restroom in Racine, Wisconsin.
This debate over god is not just an academic argument. People actually vote based on this nonsense. Our laws and policies can be shaped by asinine superstitions from 3,000 years ago. I want to live in a country that is going forward - not one still clinging to the ancient past. Because one day we'll look up and find ourselves to be the global pariah.
I am not trying to get Atheists to shut up...from any angle.
That is not at all true...and has never been my intent or attempt.
As I explained Shrina...countless times: "The only thing logical is to explain the artistic quality of the writings to those that take it or argue it from a literal basis."
To argue or take it literally, recounting every story (in focused detail) as if they are an actual account of something that occurred, and critique every aspect of them (including how it relates to world suffering/evil)...is just a total waste of angst, anger, frustration, and depression inducing time.
Use all that effort to explain the metaphorical & allegorical quality of the artistic literary work...and highlight some of the cool philosophies that can be gleaned from it.
I was a Atheist my whole adult life...and I never got caught up in worthless Devils Advocate arguments or using literal interpretation critiques to prosecute mock/shame/insult tactics to foist my side of the equation...as I understood that is no more effective than pounding sand or spitting into the wind.
I asked the question to you (or any other poster) relative to the thread. It’s a reasonable/simple question (and it’s spot on topic). Hence I’ll ask again (below), since you’re one who believes in a god (and you ignored it in your response, above). Thanks.
I'm a Pantheist...that God I perceive is objectively existing Reality (ALL).
Refer to #2684...and a gazillion other similar posts for your answer to any questions that postulate a anthropomorphic being-type Omnimax Powered God, like what is presented in literal interpretations of ancient Theological writings.
Philosophically, (it’s logical reasoning to question) why there would be an all-powerful creator who controls/manipulates (and ultimately is responsible for) our world and all people in it? To what purpose?
I'll take a stab at answering this - even though I'm a staunch atheist and certainly not a believer of any kind.
It's a bit amusing in a way because everything about Yahweh, the Christian God, smacks of humanity. Nothing about God is divine. And I mean literally nothing aside from God's superpowers. And having superpowers does not make someone good, just, wise, or correct. It just means that "might makes right" and that's the kind of power god wields against his creation.
It comes down to the fantasy minds of human authors who simply cannot imagine what it would be like to be an all-powerful God. So they put it into human terms - which is to simply rule over everyone on planet earth. Because that's almost certainly what a human would do.
In fact, Yahweh behaves exactly the way a human would - if said human woke up one day and discovered he was a god. Sooner or later this person-turned-god would be doing all kinds of immature things. Like torturing Job just to win a bet with Satan. Or telling Abraham he has to murder his only son - only to reverse his decision at the very last second. Psych! Or telling his people that they're allowed to own slaves even when he's supposed to be a good and benevolent god. And hating on women. Probably because our god-person had his heart crushed by one at some point in his past. Oh, and let's not forget the war drums. No man-turned-god can resist the power of sending his armies off to fight and commit genocide against other nations he personally doesn't like.
There's nothing divine at all about God - he acts like a rotten little brat with far too much power, the way most people, male or female, would act if they had the same powers. Being god, though, there literally are no consequences. At all. Ever.
Except - God makes a lot of stupid mistakes. I mean just plain idiotic. Like Jesus claiming that disease is caused by demon possession. Don't you think Jesus (who is supposed to be God's avatar) would've known better than that? Or getting all angry and destroying the Tower of Babel ... as if you can build a physical tower to Heaven. Something else God should know is impossible. If left alone, they would've given up eventually. Or the weight of the tower would've crushed the stone beneath and the whole thing would've collapsed. But no, God had to show off - like a typical human.
How else can a typical Bronze Age human imagine a god doing with his time than ruling over earth and meting out punishments and meddling with even the most petty affairs of humans - like ordering Onan to impregnate his dead brother's widow. Why would that matter to a god who can create universes?
I'm a Pantheist...that God I perceive is objectively existing Reality (ALL).
Refer to #2684...and a gazillion other similar posts for your answer to any questions
Since you’re apparently unable to answer the (philosophical) question directly, no problem; I didn’t meant to single out anyone. I’ve copied my original post (many pages ago) to the OP (below) as no one has responded; and it is highly relevant to his/her thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy
It’s interesting you believe in an entity based in re: horrors or how ‘screwed up’ the world is, per your OP. I think, philosophically, it does the opposite i.e. how can there be an entity controlling/manipulating the world (and/or its people) when, in fact, it would logically appear this entity is doing such a bad job of it.
What would be the purpose? Furthermore, how does it negate your responsibility relative to your own welfare or as part of a society?
Since you’re apparently unable to answer the (philosophical) question directly, no problem; I didn’t meant to single out anyone. I’ve copied my original post (many pages ago) to the OP (below) as no one has responded; and it is highly relevant to his/her thread.
You asked me specifically, in your post...and I did answer.
But, here it is again, more direct...if you think that's highly relevant:
Corporate Cowboy: ...why there would be an all-powerful creator who controls/manipulates (and ultimately is responsible for) our world and all people in it? To what purpose?
GldnRule: I'm a Pantheist...so, the God I perceive is not a "all-powerful creator who controls/manipulates (and ultimately is responsible for) our world and all people in it"
But...for those that do have that Belief/View....they probably got it from the two most widely distributed Books ever written in the history of humankind (The Bible & The Quran) and it satisfies the purpose of their embrace of what is written in those Books that tell of that. They dig that philosophy.
Tell me something, Mike: when we talk about "free will" what is the difference between these two scenarios:
1. you can choose to follow my commands or not. If you choose not to there are no repercussions.
2. you can choose to follow my commands or not. If you choose not to there are repercussions, namely an eternity suffering hell.
Do both reflect EQUALLY the exercise of free will?
The first scenario is farcical as a command without repercussions for disobeying is no command at all. The second scenario is not what was presented to Adam.
And that is, perhaps, the greatest of all brainwashing tricks in the history of Mankind.
How can humanity be responsible when God could have put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil inside the core of a neutron star on the other side of the universe. But no, he put it right in front of Adam and told him not to eat from it. Why? It's akin to putting a loaded gun in a child's playpen and telling it, "Don't play with the gun, dearie." If the child were to shoot itself, whose fault would it be? The child's? For disobeying?
That's just sllly. And as a child species, humanity did not know the difference between right and wrong. The entire concept of "disobedience" was one Adam could not have understood. Because those concepts had yet to enter the world. To make matters worse, Eve hadn't even been created yet when God warned Adam not to eat the forbidden fruit. So how could Eve have known it was forbidden? Was it any wonder, then, why the talking snake chose Eve to badger into eating it? Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Adam ever warned Eve - and even if he did, all Eve did was disobey Adam. She had no idea if God *really* gave the warning.
It's just such a crying shame that so many Christians believe humanity is responsible when it is as clear as a freshly cleaned window that God set up humanity to fail. How could an omniscient god get so ridiculously angry over one act of disobedience? The punishment itself was like a psychopath going psycho. Taking away the serpent's feet? C'mon. Ridiculous.
In fact, even IF you can blame humanity for being disobedient (you can't, but for the sake of argument ...) the punishment was still God's idea ... and God's doing ... and God's alone. There were an infinite number of ways God could have solved that problem and punished Adam and Eve.
But instead God went completely off the rails. I remember when I read how angry God was - I'll tell you a little story from my past.
When I was a little girl, I remember breaking open my piggy bank and taking around 11 dollars to the pet store where I bought a bunch of aquarium fish. Problem was - the aquarium was in my father's room. I wanted the aquarium in my room so I could fall asleep every night watching the fish. So while my father was out, I spent the next hour dragging the aquarium from his room to my room.
Now, what I did was wrong. I should not have moved it without asking first. But ... my father came home drunk, saw that I had moved the fish tank and ... let's just say he blew his temper far out of proportion to what I had done. I could have expected a stern talking to, but he literally screamed and ranted while destroying the house, smashing the dishes, punching holes in the wall ... and that was merely the beginning. And for what? Because one little girl was overzealous in her fascination with fish?
And I remember reading the Adam and Eve story - and how God reminded me so much of my drunken enraged father - sending a punishment that was out of all proportion to the so-called "crime." And to have it affect every human being from then 'till now is not just uncalled for. It's evil.
Unfortunately, Christianity has brainwashed people into believing God is the personification of Good and thus everything he does is also good. Even when it isn't.
Even when God behaves like a drunken father acting like an enraged gorilla - punishing not once, not twice, not three times, not four or five or ten or a dozen. But inflicting upon humanity every single bad act that will ever be perpetrated - from that point until now - from a mugging on a street corner to the Holocaust. From the abduction of one little girl in Nowheresville, Iowa to the shooting in Buffalo. God inflicted ALL of that onto humanity by making humanity capable of such acts, by bringing sin and evil into the world where before, it was absent. Something we were NOT until God unleashed the hounds.
And WHY was there a talking snake in the Garden of Eden in the first place? Specifically, a talking snake that seemed very keen on getting humanity to disobey God. Why? Because it was the Garden of Eden, after all. It was supposed to be paradise. It was supposed to be a safe place where Adam and Eve could just romp around eating fruit and having sex. Why would either of them think that a snake would be there to stear them wrong? Does THAT make sense to you?
The Adam and Eve story is as full of as many holes as the Titanic and floats just as well. But even if you took the entire story literally, God is responsible.
The best analogy is this: It's like a computer programmer who programs his computer to crash on startup. So when it does, the programmer gets angry and blames the computer.
Humans are like god's computer program - he knew without question what humanity would do. So instead of averting the problem by not putting a forbidden tree in the garden - to say nothing of putting a deceptive talking snake in there with them - God simply set up everything for humanity to fail, then sat back and watched the disaster play out. A disaster God *knew* would happen.
Then faked a lot of beyond the pale rage just so he could insert sin, evil, suffering, and death into our lives all the while blaming humanity for it. God is the inventor of victim blaming. Because Adam and Eve, naive as they were, walked right into God's trap. Never mind the complete and total injustice of punishing generation after generation of humans for the petty little crime of one singular person. Nonsense.
But it makes for a good story for why there is suffering in the world. No doubt that is a question that has been asked since time immemorial. I mean - it's a good story if you see it as a mere story. But if you really believe it to be true and really think the God responsible for it is in any least way a GOOD God, then it becomes a horror story.
The tree was there for Adam to partake of, but only on God's terms, not on Adam's. That's the root of Adam's entire problem; that he wanted the knowledge of good and evil on his terms and in his own timing. Had Adam resisted the temptation of the serpent, he would have then been able to partake of the tree and be confirmed in righteousness forever.
We would also disagree with your characterizing Adam as a child or childlike. He was created as a man and endowed with everything he needed to obey God. His disobedience was completely his conscious choice while aware of the consequences.
But...for those that do have that Belief/View....they probably got it from the two most widely distributed Books ever written in the history of humankind (The Bible & The Quran) and it satisfies the purpose of their embrace of what is written in those Books that tell of that.
It was a philosophical question, one which requires thought/deductive reasoning to answer i.e. I was not asking about written works or where people get their beliefs from, lol. That said, no problem, I confused you with the OP; my original post (below) was to him/her (or anyone else who believes in a god and thinks it is responsible for what we do, as a whole - good or bad).
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorporateCowboy
It’s interesting you believe in an entity based in re: horrors or how ‘screwed up’ the world is, per your OP. I think, philosophically, it does the opposite i.e. how can there be an entity controlling/manipulating the world (and/or its people) when, in fact, it would logically appear this entity is doing such a bad job of it.
What would be the purpose? Furthermore, how does it negate your responsibility relative to your own welfare or as part of a society?
Last edited by CorporateCowboy; 05-21-2022 at 09:11 PM..
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