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Uh ... Gldn ... seriously. You're essentially saying that, because I believed in God when I was 12, I have no right to speak out against a belief in God as an adult. At the very least, yet again, I should just sit down and shut up.
It's like saying people who got in trouble with the law should never go to schools and warn kids to stay out of trouble.
Exactly. The views I now hold aren't the ones I held in the Long Ago, often precisely because those views didn't work out. They didn't accurately explain or predict my lived experience, so I moved on from them.
The other nonsense claim that tends to go along with this is that now that I am not a believer, I should have zero interest in or engagement with believers. Which is equally nonsensical. I'm not a believer, nor a secret believer, nor do I have some need for believers to always be wrong about everything. I'm a former believer with an interest in how I was mired in those beliefs and how I got out of them and how that experience might be of use to others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
Now see ... here is where we atheists are screwed over by the forum rules. Because if I were allowed to talk about how religion influences politics - and how religion influences science - and worse, how religion influences our education system, I could tell you exactly why I speak out against religion. I could quite literally write several volumes of books detailing how religion corrupts the democratic process - and the ever-growing influence religion has on right-wing extremism. But I can't.
So you get to ask questions I'm not allowed to answer - which irritates the living hell out of me, to be quite frank about it.
That's a big reason I left this place, just to go somewhere that I can speak freely, where there are not hall monitors running all over the place trying to control everything.
I came back because there's critical mass here, however burdened or fraught. I am still in the other place and have the best of both worlds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
One thing about right-wing religion - it's never happy unless it's making other people unhappy. All they're interested in doing is persecuting and discriminating people, using religion like a club to beat down ANYONE who refuses to conform.
They probably would beg to differ but as you say they can't really see themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina
My apologies for writing yet another long post - I know how much people seem to hate that. Reading is such an arduous chore for some people. But the answer I have to your question is not a simple cut-and-dried answer that can be summed up in a couple of sentences.
I, for one, have more of an attention span than a gnat, and always enjoy your posts. Even the rants. Maybe especially those ;-)
Exactly. The views I now hold aren't the ones I held in the Long Ago, often precisely because those views didn't work out. They didn't accurately explain or predict my lived experience, so I moved on from them.
The other nonsense claim that tends to go along with this is that now that I am not a believer, I should have zero interest in or engagement with believers. Which is equally nonsensical. I'm not a believer, nor a secret believer, nor do I have some need for believers to always be wrong about everything. I'm a former believer with an interest in how I was mired in those beliefs and how I got out of them and how that experience might be of use to others.
You know by now where I am standing on that road because I've yammered enough about it here lately, and indeed, your experience is of great use to me. Thank you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
That's a big reason I left this place, just to go somewhere that I can speak freely, where there are not hall monitors running all over the place trying to control everything.
But there aren't, really. There are some rules here that I might not agree with that predate me or were set by the Administrator of the forum, but one of the big differences between this forum and others on religion is that the non-religious are not only welcome to come here and post about their perspectives on religion, they are encouraged to do so. I've only been a mod for fewer than four years, and I can't tell you how many times I've had to remind someone complaining about atheists posting here that it's a forum about religion, not a forum for the religious. I think I could type those words in my sleep by now.
If there were other mods here besides the two you've got now (not including the one who takes care of Judaism) things would be clamped down much worse. We've been criticized roundly by other mods who do not think we are harsh enough, but on the other hand, none of them want to moderate this forum, so they mostly leave us alone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
I came back because there's critical mass here, however burdened or fraught. I am still in the other place and have the best of both worlds.
They probably would beg to differ but as you say they can't really see themselves.
I, for one, have more of an attention span than a gnat, and always enjoy your posts. Even the rants. Maybe especially those ;-)
Well, if a post is long but has something to say, it's a lot different from one, that, for example, is long and nothing but a list of Bible quotes meant to say...whatever the heck it is they are saying if it's supposed to be more than "look how many verses I know!".
At the time, however, that isn't how we perceived God. I won't speak for Mordant, but I really thought there was an entity out there that played around with people's lives. I know it seems utterly ludicrous now, sure, but I was barely out of grammar school - "tweenager" I think they're called. I still had a mushy brain.
Again, I won't speak for Mordant - I suspect people do that for a lot of different reasons. For me, pure and simple, it was desperation. I wasn't getting any help from humanity so I directed my attention to the only place left.
That's what I believe now - yes. But when I was 12? Like I said, I was just *barely* coming out of those magical years of childhood when anything was possible - Santa, giant anthropomorphic rabbits on Easter Sunday, unicorns, even imaginary friends seemed plenty real. At that age, I was only just taking my first steps into the far less magical world of "middle school" - so an all powerful god was far easier to swallow given that seemingly everyone believed in it.
Uh ... Gldn ... seriously. You're essentially saying that, because I believed in God when I was 12, I have no right to speak out against a belief in God as an adult. At the very least, yet again, I should just sit down and shut up.
It's like saying people who got in trouble with the law should never go to schools and warn kids to stay out of trouble.
Now see ... here is where we atheists are screwed over by the forum rules. Because if I were allowed to talk about how religion influences politics - and how religion influences science - and worse, how religion influences our education system, I could tell you exactly why I speak out against religion. I could quite literally write several volumes of books detailing how religion corrupts the democratic process - and the ever-growing influence religion has on right-wing extremism. But I can't.
So you get to ask questions I'm not allowed to answer - which irritates the living hell out of me, to be quite frank about it.
I'm not entirely sure what you're driving at here. All I can really say, assuming I'm interpreting this correctly, is that I have never - not even once - been inflicted with any kind of emotional pain for refusing to believe in ancient Palestinian myths.
However, I'm probably one of the lucky ones since I know people talk all the time about the pure evil nastiness many atheists have had to endure at the hands of Christians - simply for exercising their Constitutional right to not worship anything.
Nearly everyone who believes in a god - regardless of what they call it - are so enmeshed within that belief system that they can't imagine a world without a god. This is the reason why a good portion of believers cannot handle any kind of criticism of their beliefs no matter how professionally or gently that criticism is made. They've internalized their belief to such a degree that there is literally NO difference between the belief and the person doing the believing. If I were to say that Yahweh is a pooh-pooh head, what THEY see is: "GldnRule is a poohpooh head" - at which point they start ranting about personal attacks, slamming the "report" button, and complaining about atheists posting on this forum.
IF a person could step outside of their religious beliefs - primarily those who have a rigid belief system such as fundamentalists, evangelicals, certain baptists - those who swear by the existence of a specific named being referred to only in an uncorroborated holy book - those types. If they could step outside of their religious beliefs and see them how I do, I'm willing to bet that at least half of them would start seriously questioning their faith. Because it's, quite frankly, barmy.
Think of it this way:
Imagine you live in a world where you haven't been browbeaten with Christianity since Day One. You're at home and the doorbell rings. Standing there are two people with fake smiles who wish to bring you the Good News.
What on earth is that? You may wonder, yes? So here is what they tell you:
You should henceforth and forthwith devote your lives to a god-man who sacrificed himself to himself to circumvent a curse and punishment he, himself, created when a woman made from a rib was deceived by a talking snake to eat a forbidden fruit from a magical tree!
Now, I think if people were honest with themselves, they would probably slam the door in their faces and mutter about crazy wackjobs and their stupid cults.
BUT ... because the once cult-turned-religion called Christianity has become a literal institution, it indoctrinates millions of children before these kids EVER have the freedom of thought to make up their own minds about what to believe - if anything at all.
Which is why, inconceivably, even people like yourself - who do not even claim to be a Christian - will still continue to treat this religion as if it were just a nanometer away from being true. The entire premise of Christianity is not only insane on its face, it also advocates that the most evil act one being can inflict upon another - eternal torture - is somehow good, just, and moral wholesome goodness!!
And yet, bafflingly and mind-bogglingly enough, you will claim that it makes MORE sense to take the Bible literally than to not believe in it at all.
I mean ... seriously ... if you can't see the absolute lunacy of what churches actually teach people as being real, then ... I really don't know anymore. I guess as I've gotten older over the last 10 years, I've just lost some of the desire to show people the absolute certifiable nature of religious dogma.
Well ... any time I read anyone's post and my eyeballs start once again bleeding as they start complaining that we atheists are willing to keep fighting the good fight, sorry, but I see it as nothing more than "sit down and shut up."
The last time I was here, some random Christian poster I had never seen before started whining and boo-hooing about homosexuals, gay marriage, the unraveling of society and all the rest of that crap - and not one single person outside of the atheist community criticized said poster. In other words, here's this poster STILL complaining about gays some 12 years after same-sex marriage has been made legal - and no one is telling THAT person, "Hey, ya know? Maybe you don't need to keep bashing gays ..."
Yeah, religious people are allowed to prosalytize their bigotry, their prejudices, their hatred, and their superstitious phobias until the proverbial cows come home and NO ONE tells them enough's enough.
But by golly if an atheist says something negative about religion - yeah - here it comes. "Why do you keep complaining about God if you don't believe in him?" And, "Why are atheists even posting on this forum?" and more nonsense to that effect - essentially saying atheists should be relegated to posting ONLY in the A&A forum so believers can turn this forum into a back-patting echo chamber extravaganza.
The Supreme Court is about ready to rescind the Constitutional right to have an abortion. Already, even before this has happened, Christians and the court (now stacked with right-wing conservative judges) are eyeing Obergefell v. Hodges - the law that legalized same-sex marriage across the country. They're like vultures on a powerline just waiting ... waiting ... trying to figure out a way to repeal that, as well. These freaks of nature won't be happy until even interracial marriages are banned.
One thing about right-wing religion - it's never happy unless it's making other people unhappy. All they're interested in doing is persecuting and discriminating people, using religion like a club to beat down ANYONE who refuses to conform.
Is it really any surprise that the fundamentalist, evangelical communities have rallied behind right-wing extremism including such racist groups like the Proud Boys? Don't believe me? Look up Greg Locke. They worship Trump more than they do Jesus - especially since Jesus would never approve of their shinanigans.
And that's about all the politics I'm probably allowed - which is why I said earlier how I'm prevented from discussing the clear and present danger religion is to our free and democratic way of life. It puts atheists like me - who argue more from a geo-political point of view rather than debating semantics in the Bible - at a severe if not debilitating disadvantage.
My apologies for writing yet another long post - I know how much people seem to hate that. Reading is such an arduous chore for some people. But the answer I have to your question is not a simple cut-and-dried answer that can be summed up in a couple of sentences.
We'll see if it's really a solution. So help me, though, it better not be a case of atheists just shutting up and taking up quilting or something ...
I'm not talking about 12 year olds...I'm talking about adults going off about the fantastical stories (in detail...with satire & mocking) in a book they know is a metaphorical and allegorical work of literary art.
It has to just be a way to vent away the angst & frustration over the fact that so many do believe it literally.
Since no one would think that posting to this forum is any kind of effective way to "prevent potential negative effects of Religion on society"...because it's not. Not even a little bit.
And venting is cool...I take no issue with that. But it should be copped to...not claim it is "sincere inquiry" or "requests for evidence & substantiation".
I think it is a complete waste of time and effort to analyze and critique the attitude, thoughts, and deeds (or inaction) of entities that one claims to know are just representative characters in a Ancient Book...or assess (in detail) stories of occurrences that they know to be metaphorical and allegorical yarns.
People might go on and on about what they believe and have faith in...but not about what they don't, except maybe to criticize it or complain about it...but even then it's just to note that's how they view it.
Now...the solution I promised: Just go with and endorse Invisible Pink Unicorn, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, or The Teapot.
Other Atheists have gone through all they have to invent them...and they are already very well known. And...no required service attendance, tithing, or attempts to influence any social/political positions. Plus...proselytizing will be a hoot!
See that? Fixed it for ya all!
At the time, however, that isn't how we perceived God. I won't speak for Mordant, but I really thought there was an entity out there that played around with people's lives. I know it seems utterly ludicrous now, sure, but I was barely out of grammar school - "tweenager" I think they're called. I still had a mushy brain.
nipped for space ...
We'll see if it's really a solution. So help me, though, it better not be a case of atheists just shutting up and taking up quilting or something ...
Well, people are responsible ... that ends that.
It really is more reliable to believe in some thing more. Just on the observations that is. If we need moral support, thats not my area, As soon atheist answer to atheism or seek self help witnesses by atheist to help much through this life ... then it becomes religious looking to me.
You know by now where I am standing on that road because I've yammered enough about it here lately, and indeed, your experience is of great use to me. Thank you.
But there aren't, really. There are some rules here that I might not agree with that predate me or were set by the Administrator of the forum, but one of the big differences between this forum and others on religion is that the non-religious are not only welcome to come here and post about their perspectives on religion, they are encouraged to do so. I've only been a mod for fewer than four years, and I can't tell you how many times I've had to remind someone complaining about atheists posting here that it's a forum about religion, not a forum for the religious. I think I could type those words in my sleep by now.
If there were other mods here besides the two you've got now (not including the one who takes care of Judaism) things would be clamped down much worse. We've been criticized roundly by other mods who do not think we are harsh enough, but on the other hand, none of them want to moderate this forum, so they mostly leave us alone.
Well, if a post is long but has something to say, it's a lot different from one, that, for example, is long and nothing but a list of Bible quotes meant to say...whatever the heck it is they are saying if it's supposed to be more than "look how many verses I know!".
Ya know MQ...I've had a question, for a long time ...that for some reason has never been answered.
I would like to ask it here in open forum, so the answer is available to all.
You note "rules here" ^^^ bolded above.
And the rule that, "the non-religious are not only welcome to come here and post about their perspectives on religion, they are encouraged to do so"...is completely reasonable, and a good one IMO.
Also...other rules that we are informed govern participation here is the Terms Of Service/Religion Posting Guidelines https://www.city-data.com/forum/36093973-post2.html
Now, in those Posting Guidelines, it says that it is proscribed to "Bash anyone's religion".
So..my question: What is considered "bashing"?
Religion (and especially Christianity) is criticized, insulted, and mocked here in every possible way...from every possible angle...The Theology in general, the dogma & edicts, the Books & Writings, The Deities, the Religious organizations, the organizational officials, and the Adherents for embracing the Theology...obviously the Moderators do not consider this "bashing", because no action is ever taken against the posts.
So...if not that, what *would* constitute bashing...and could you give an example?
Ya know MQ...I've had a question, for a long time ...that for some reason has never been answered.
I would like to ask it here in open forum, so the answer is available to all.
You note "rules here" ^^^ bolded above.
And the rule that, "the non-religious are not only welcome to come here and post about their perspectives on religion, they are encouraged to do so"...is completely reasonable, and a good one IMO.
Also...other rules that we are informed govern participation here is the Terms Of Service/Religion Posting Guidelines https://www.city-data.com/forum/36093973-post2.html
Now, in those Posting Guidelines, it says that it is proscribed to "Bash anyone's religion".
So..my question: What is considered "bashing"?
Religion (and especially Christianity) is criticized, insulted, and mocked here in every possible way...from every possible angle...The Theology in general, the dogma & edicts, the Books & Writings, The Deities, the Religious organizations, the organizational officials, and the Adherents for embracing the Theology...obviously the Moderators do not consider this "bashing", because no action is ever taken against the posts.
So...if not that, what *would* constitute bashing...and could you give an example?
You left out "or lack of same".
Criticism is not bashing to me, neither is pointing out what one sees as negative results or contradictions within a religion. Discussion about religion is the point of this subforum.
The way I read the paragraph, wherein specific denominations are mentioned, it seems to refer to the rule against specific religion bashing; for example, not simply questioning Christianity in general, but threads/posts declaring "Mormons are not real Christians" or "Muslims are terrorists".
The opening topic of this thread, from which we have greatly diverged, is a former believer asking how the God he once believed in could allow terrible things to happen. That's not bashing religion.
I'm not talking about 12 year olds...I'm talking about adults going off about the fantastical stories (in detail...with satire & mocking) in a book they know is a metaphorical and allegorical work of literary art.
It has to just be a way to vent away the angst & frustration over the fact that so many do believe it literally.
And we have explained this before. We know the Bible is (in places) metaphorical and allegorical, but the people we are responding to are arguing it is literal, the people who want to base how society works based on their literal interpretation of allegorical works.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
Since no one would think that posting to this forum is any kind of effective way to "prevent potential negative effects of Religion on society"...because it's not. Not even a little bit.
'Venting' worked for the equal rights of homosexuals, colored people and women. Remaining silent does not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
And venting is cool...I take no issue with that. But it should be copped to...not claim it is "sincere inquiry" or "requests for evidence & substantiation".
Except no one but you is venting. In every post. It is rational to ask for evidence for irrational claims, and this includes religion. That is why no one is CLAIMING it is "sincere inquiry" or "requests for evidence & substantiation", it IS "sincere inquiry" or "requests for evidence & substantiation".
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
I think it is a complete waste of time and effort to analyze and critique the attitude, thoughts, and deeds (or inaction) of entities that one claims to know are just representative characters in a Ancient Book...or assess (in detail) stories of occurrences that they know to be metaphorical and allegorical yarns.
People might go on and on about what they believe and have faith in...but not about what they don't, except maybe to criticize it or complain about it...but even then it's just to note that's how they view it.
Yet pointing out the flaws in other peoples arguments is part of how we progress in society. Because once again, it is not about what we know, it is about what others are claiming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
Now...the solution I promised: Just go with and endorse Invisible Pink Unicorn, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, or The Teapot.
Other Atheists have gone through all they have to invent them...and they are already very well known. And...no required service attendance, tithing, or attempts to influence any social/political positions. Plus...proselytizing will be a hoot!
See that? Fixed it for ya all!
So scientists, historians and other religious people can respond to religious claims, but atheists can not. Because the one thing that you fail to grasp is we are usually not responding as atheists, but as people who understand the flaws in the arguments being made. Because as others have (incorrectly) pointed out before, atheism is nothing. Atheism is a conclusion based on evidence (or your lack of), and we are responding based on that, just as scientists, historians and other religious people do. But for some reason you want atheists to be quiet. No.
And we have explained this before. We know the Bible is (in places) metaphorical and allegorical, but the people we are responding to are arguing it is literal, the people who want to base how society works based on their literal interpretation of allegorical works.
'Venting' worked for the equal rights of homosexuals, colored people and women. Remaining silent does not.
Except no one but you is venting. In every post. It is rational to ask for evidence for irrational claims, and this includes religion. That is why no one is CLAIMING it is "sincere inquiry" or "requests for evidence & substantiation", it IS "sincere inquiry" or "requests for evidence & substantiation".
Yet pointing out the flaws in other peoples arguments is part of how we progress in society. Because once again, it is not about what we know, it is about what others are claiming.
So scientists, historians and other religious people can respond to religious claims, but atheists can not. Because the one thing that you fail to grasp is we are usually not responding as atheists, but as people who understand the flaws in the arguments being made. Because as others have (incorrectly) pointed out before, atheism is nothing. Atheism is a conclusion based on evidence (or your lack of), and we are responding based on that, just as scientists, historians and other religious people do. But for some reason you want atheists to be quiet. No.
It is YOU that is illogical.
Atheism is what's illogical...just a Argument From Ignorance exercise.
You refuse to go anywhere but Subjective Beliefs 'R' Us, and you just remain in the middle of the store (for years) complaining that you can't find the Objective Facts you are looking for.
The most common Theological Ideologies are based upon their Books and writings.
Many read those, and believe them. Some believe them literally, some believe them metaphorically & allegorically, some believe with a combination of that.
All have their reasons and justifications for their belief, which is based upon their individual perceptions, intuitions and analysis, and it is thus true to them.
Others may find those perceptions and intuitions to be drawing conclusions & making claims based upon what they feel are "bad arguments" or insufficient "evidence & substantiation" to satisfy them.
So what? That's too bad, FOR THEM.
Don't like it? Oh, well!
Nobody owes anybody anything in the way of explanations, justifications, and "substantiations" such that it satisfies them. Why would they? Why would anyone have to justify their Religious and/or Spiritual Beliefs, Perceptions, Intuitions, Faith, and feelings to ANYONE else?
People should be able to hold their Beliefs without judgement, criticism, or confrontation.
And the only thing that should be criticized is the bashing (formally defined as: Heavy Criticism) https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/...nglish/bashing .....or, just ignored as the blowhole spew it is.
HOWBOWDAH?
Are you moving the goalposts now? God said to Adam "you will surely die". He didn't say anything about an eternity in hell.
You're twisting yourself into knots in order to explain yourself out of something that is really very simple.
Suffering and death are all around you. You will die. I will die. That has become the default state. God has made a way for us to have life. It's as simple as that.
An eternity of death (which is what you believe) or an eternity of life.
Our wills are corrupted by sin, so we are not as free as Adam was. We are slaves to our passions, yet God has given us the means to conquer our passions and no longer be slaves.
Always seems to me that at least part of our will is to have a life after death...
There can be no understanding and reconciliation between the physical-minded literalists and those who seek spiritual-minded understanding. The trope that the Bible is to be understood spiritually is more than a suggestion. Spirit refers to the "REAL" us created within an evolved animal body (dust of the earth). It was NOT a physical body created. God is Spirit and we are created in His image which is Spirit, period.
All you physical-minded believers are simply misguided and wrong. There will be no physical body after our death. Spirit exists at a much higher energy level than the physical. Our spiritual interface will probably see it in the physical terms we are used to but it will not actually be physical (nothing spiritual is, think Shallow Hal).
Doesn't seem possible to have understanding or reconciliation along these lines to me either, but also always seems to me that at least part of our will is to believe in something beyond, one way or another, because our will is just not satisfied with the physical. We want, need, more. Always more, more, more. Believing in our "spiritual interface" helps us with that want, need, but believing in such things doesn't reconcile the "physical-minded" with the "spiritual-minded" either.
No more than facts, reason and logic can be reconciled with beliefs that are not supported with facts, reason and logic. (Spiritual is, think Whateversville).
Last edited by LearnMe; 05-24-2022 at 08:33 AM..
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