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What makes you think the universe came from nothing? Science has never said the universe came from "nothing."
I already said that but he/she skipped right over it.
If statements like ours get paid attention to, then they can't come back and keep repeating the same old crap over and over again.
1) Put faith in Jesus being the son of God that came and died on the cross for your sins and rose again
What exactly is meant by son of God? At the time, the phrase would have meant a righteous person, certainly true but not extraordinary. Paul uses it in a definitely extraordinary sense and Matthew in a literal sense. John relates it to Philo’s ‘first begotten’, actually a rather different concept. The Romans would have taken it as a title of the Emperor, which is why Luke, who writes to a Gentile audience, has the centurion call the dead Jesus a righteous man instead of Son of God. But it took centuries to work out how Jesus fit into the big picture and there is still disagreement on the details. What exactly is one required to mean when calling Jesus the son of God? And how does one tell from reading scriptures?
There are a variety of meanings assigned to Jesus dying on the cross: Ransom, Recapitulation, Satisfaction, Penal Substitution, Moral Influence, Moral Government, Declaratory, Guaranty, Vicarious Repentance, and Christus Victor. Which is the right one? How is the average person to even understand the meaning unless being told by some theologian? And why do the theologians not agree?
The meaning of the first two is not perfectly clear but if they ae considered as lending authority to the third the exact meaning may not be needed. And that third one is the resurrection. I previously quoted Paul as saying that this is where faith lies, that the resurrection of Jesus signifies that there will be a future resurrection and judgment. And if we do what Jesus says we are eligible for eternal life. Jesus himself said so in those exact words.
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2) Repent of your sins
Yes, the idea of repentance and forgiveness is all over the OT and NT. But what exactly are the sins for which we are to repent? Why is there no mention in your list of the specific commands we need to follow as specified in Matt 19. Admittedly that ‘love your neighbor’ one is a biggie, covering a lot of territory. Just how important that one is can be seen in the Sheep and Goats story in Matt 25. Or is it just that I asked ‘other than Matt 19’ and you do include that in the message of Jesus?
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3) Become born again
Earlier you said this was turning from ones sinful lifestyle. I have no problem with someone having a sinful lifestyle turning away from it. But to necessarily be born again presumes that one has a sinful lifestyle to being with. We have already distinguished having a sinful lifestyle from merely sinning once in a while, which everybody does (as Paul tells us). Occasional sinning requires repenting and seeking forgiveness. A sinful lifestyle requires changing your lifestyle. Repentance and seeking forgiveness without changing one’s lifestyle is not sincere repentance.
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4) Developing and growing your relationship with God/Jesus
Specifically how? What does this really mean? If I really work at doing what Jesus said to do (Matt 19) is that it? If it is something else, where does Jesus say what it is?
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It is very hard to be ok with God.
I admit that ‘love your neighbor’ and all its ramifications is a really big one and not so easy. But if one does the things Jesus said to do, including getting back on the horse when you fall off, is that really so outrageously hard?
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Salvation/Christianity is about the 4 things I touched on above. One can not do that without knowing of Jesus. However, God is Just and provides alternative ways for people that have never heard.
One cannot do (1) and (4) without hearing about Jesus since they specifically reference Jesus. But one can do (2) and (3) plus what it says in Matt 19 without hearing about Jesus, these being as Paul says written in the heart. The question is: other than an additional reason to do (2) and (3) (resurrection/judgment), what else does Christianity offer toward salvation?
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You are being vague here.
What does later "backslides" actually mean?
Repeating the same sin? Doing different sins? etc etc
Weekly? Monthly? 1 time of year? etc etc.
You are making this more complicated than it is.
One is either living a sinful lifestyle or not living a sinful lifestyle. We are all going to sin, however not everyone lives a sinful lifestyle.
As I pointed out if I willingly deliberately choose to go get drunk weekly / monthly I am living a sinful lifestyle. If I willingly deliberately choose to have sex with another woman while married repeatedly I am living a sinful lifestyle.
Anyone that says one will completely stop sinning all together is insane. You do not even need to debunk such an outrageous statement.
If one is living a sinful lifestyle and does not even try to change, obviously the repentance was not sincere. We are on the same page here.
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btw are you Catholic?
I was raised Catholic but it never really took. I have not been a Catholic in belief or practice for over half a century now. Although not a believer, my arguments here have been in the context of what scripture says and not arguments against belief.
Its either proven or its not. If not, In which case one has to use faith (whether on evidence or not).
Nice try, but bzzzzt! Wrong answer.
Yeah, I get it. We all get it.
Believers in gods, magic, and superstition just LOVE to try and make religion and science the same by claiming that science is all faith-based. It sure would be comforting if that were true, wouldn't it? I bet that would make believers feel a lot less like they're howling at the moon if everyone from Newton to Hawking were preaching faith.
It's too bad for you that they're not - and it's too bad that science is not mere faith.
As other people already pointed out, you seem to have zero understanding of how science works. Science isn't simply "making stuff up" the way religion is. Science doesn't tell you to believe in the Big Bang because a textbook tells you to. Nor does it deify Darwin and say you had better believe everything out of Darwin's mouth is the Divine Truth or burn forever in a lake of fire.
Science expands our knowledge while religion restricts it. The fact that we're still having debates about the Big Bang and evolution and whether they are true because (*gasp*) it contradicts a 3,000 year-old book is proof positive of that. Yes, yes, it's MUCH easier to believe that a supernatural being magically created humanity from a pile of dirt and a rib than it is to actually learn about evolution. Magic is so much neater and tidier of an explanation, one that doesn't leave any unanswered questions, the kind of explanation even a brain-dead child could understand.
And that's the real kicker, I think. Religious explanations involving magic and spells and "poofing" things into existence is so eeeeeasy, isn't it. That's why one can use religion to indoctrinate and brainwash children at a young age so that, by the time they're old enough to start learning about the REAL universe, it's too late. By then, the only questions they'll have is, "What about the Bible?" "What about God?" "Mom says that evolution is a bunch of crap." "Dad says that if I believe in the Big Bang, I'll go to hell."
Yes, by all means, go to church to learn about the universe. Uh huh. That way, you can be just like our ancestors who thought lightning was the result of a god throwing a fit, who blamed natural disasters on angry gods, who thought prayer was as effective at curing an infection as antibiotics. Anyone who believes religious claims over science may as well try to cure their medical ailments with leeches and a potpourri poultice. Because that's about where you would be on the education scale regarding science.
You'll be part of the group all of the kids will laugh about in a few hundred years.
"Really? People used to think that a magical god just spoke the universe into existence? Ha ha! *giggle giggle*"
"Heehee, yeah, teacher, they must've been really dumb back then."
"No, no, class. You shouldn't make fun. Some of our 21st Century ancestors just didn't know any better."
If one doesn't believe in God and/or the supernatural then there is only one way to assume the universe came to be ie something from nothing.
Go read some of Hawkings' stuff. It's really aggravating when someone tries to debate against science when they really don't know or understand what their opponents are saying. If you don't grasp the scientific alternative to religious mambo-jahambo, we might as well post our responses in Bengali for all the good it does.
Believers in gods, magic, and superstition just LOVE to try and make religion and science the same by claiming that science is all faith-based. It sure would be comforting if that were true, wouldn't it? I bet that would make believers feel a lot less like they're howling at the moon if everyone from Newton to Hawking were preaching faith.
It's too bad for you that they're not - and it's too bad that science is not mere faith.
As other people already pointed out, you seem to have zero understanding of how science works. Science isn't simply "making stuff up" the way religion is. Science doesn't tell you to believe in the Big Bang because a textbook tells you to. Nor does it deify Darwin and say you had better believe everything out of Darwin's mouth is the Divine Truth or burn forever in a lake of fire.
Science expands our knowledge while religion restricts it. The fact that we're still having debates about the Big Bang and evolution and whether they are true because (*gasp*) it contradicts a 3,000 year-old book is proof positive of that. Yes, yes, it's MUCH easier to believe that a supernatural being magically created humanity from a pile of dirt and a rib than it is to actually learn about evolution. Magic is so much neater and tidier of an explanation, one that doesn't leave any unanswered questions, the kind of explanation even a brain-dead child could understand.
And that's the real kicker, I think. Religious explanations involving magic and spells and "poofing" things into existence is so eeeeeasy, isn't it. That's why one can use religion to indoctrinate and brainwash children at a young age so that, by the time they're old enough to start learning about the REAL universe, it's too late. By then, the only questions they'll have is, "What about the Bible?" "What about God?" "Mom says that evolution is a bunch of crap." "Dad says that if I believe in the Big Bang, I'll go to hell."
Yes, by all means, go to church to learn about the universe. Uh huh. That way, you can be just like our ancestors who thought lightning was the result of a god throwing a fit, who blamed natural disasters on angry gods, who thought prayer was as effective at curing an infection as antibiotics. Anyone who believes religious claims over science may as well try to cure their medical ailments with leeches and a potpourri poultice. Because that's about where you would be on the education scale regarding science.
You'll be part of the group all of the kids will laugh about in a few hundred years.
"Really? People used to think that a magical god just spoke the universe into existence? Ha ha! *giggle giggle*"
"Heehee, yeah, teacher, they must've been really dumb back then."
"No, no, class. You shouldn't make fun. Some of our 21st Century ancestors just didn't know any better."
if god wants people to know he exists why not just show himself?
First of all, he is probably afraid that he will be arrested for indecent exposure. Seriously, I mean, would the all-mighty be wearing clothes?
Okay, so I'm not a big fan of theism in any traditional sense. If there were a God who wanted to be known, I'm sure he could find some simple way to do it that would convince each and every person of his reality. All-powerful and all-knowing...yeah, he'd find a way. He'd know exactly what you needed to see in order to be convinced of his existence, then he'd present you with this evidence in no uncertain terms. It would be a done deal. We could all stop arguing over the existence of God and go on about our more important business, like discussing who is going to have a crush on who in the next episode of The Big Bang Theory.
The fact that God does not show himself is, for me, strong evidence that God - if he exists at all - is not a person in any ordinary sense, and does not care about our opinions one way or the other. God could be an Jungian-style unconscious universal mind, or a primordial cosmic energy field, or some implicit life-potential buried in the vacuum of physics, etc., but he's not a Being who impregnated a virgin girl 2000 years ago then disappeared into the woodwork without offering to pay child support.
(And, I can't help wishing I could have been a fly on the wall back when Mary explained to Joseph about that whole getting-pregnant business. Kinda like Bill explaining to Hilary that he didn't really have sex but...um...there's this funny thing that happened...)
Last edited by Gaylenwoof; 01-30-2015 at 02:39 PM..
What makes you think the universe came from nothing? Science has never said the universe came from "nothing."
Simple, science has never proven or replicated "something from nothing". And they have the luxury of using a controlled setting / environment.
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