Why does God never show himself? (contradiction, principle, perspective, demons)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
We have no idea what the universe birthed out of and it doesn't make any difference. If it birthed out of another universe or some kind of subtle energy field, then where are we? Not "omg there is a God after all", and not "omg there isn't a God after all". If we somehow figure out that it sprang from nothing, then where are we? Same place.
As for evidence of something coming from nothing, there is plenty of that in the field of quantum mechanics. Our study isn't complete though, "nothing" to us right now is likely something, it's just something that we can't measure or observe yet.
And for the record, theory is actually very solid, only topped by law. You are thinking of a hypothesis, which is a educated guess.
You have no idea if there is a supernatural deity.
Theory might be very solid, but not concrete. It is still unproven regardless of the evidence to support it.
Show me proof he exists. Burden of proof is on those claiming outrageous things, which for humans at the moment is the idea of a all powerful omnipotent being. Everything we know, all the research and discovery we've accomplished in the last few hundred years has turned up zero evidence in favor of a God.
Not to mention one only has to look back at when religion reigned supreme over humanity and how much devastation resulted from it (crusades anyone? The dark ages? Ringing any bells?) to see that God is not a beneficial idea for humanity. Lets not forget Islamic terrorists that are wrecking havoc on our world right now. Religion is a disease.
I'm agnostic, by the way. There's no reason to assume that some kind of intelligence didn't create the universe or whatever the universe came from. There is just no proof to support that, and I don't believe crap that has no evidence.
I am not the one making absolute statements.
I already said, my belief is founded on faith. Thus I need to provide no proof.
Basically, Son of God, just means God in the flesh and/or God's son for whom he sent to spread his word and die on the cross for our sins.
Three hundred years later people were will still arguing about what Son of God meant, specifically whether Jesus was really God in the flesh. Ultimately anything other than the ‘official’ (state mandated) take on the matter was made illegal. And the official resolution of the matter – the Trinity concept – is considered a mystery beyond human comprehension. Basically believing that Jesus is the Son of God is believing what one is told to be the case. We may note that Jesus himself never says he is the Son of God.
Quote:
I never said anything about the meanings of Jesus dying on the cross. His simply died for our sins, an atonement as you will.
Interestingly, none of the Gospels use the word atone (in any form) or the word sacrifice with regard to Jesus. Jesus dies for us, no explanation of what that means. Paul uses the word atonement only once (and sacrifice not at all) but he refers to the death of Jesus as countering sin numerous times. Exactly what that means and why Jesus dying should have that effect is not explained. The ten different theories I mentioned show that these questions are not easily answered from reading scripture. Again it seems as if believing in Jesus dying for our sins is not something one understands but accepts because one is told to accept it.
Quote:
We are to repent for all our sins we commit.
All sinning requires repenting. You seem to be agreeing with me here. And being born again isnt completely in relation to sinning. It is also in relation to a new faith and relationship with God.
Agreed. But an explicit message of Jesus (and that is what we are talking about) is that we are to avoid specific sinful actions and perform specific righteous actions. Jesus says that this is how one gets eternal life and even downplays his role in the matter. Yet so many Christians repeatedly claim that this is not the case. This IS the explicit, mandatory and (according to Jesus) sufficient prerequisite for eternal life. Instead faith alone is put forth as the only way.
Quote:
Praying and reading your Bible regularly.
Jesus told us how to pray. The Lord’s prayer is about asking for: help in avoiding sin, forgiveness for sins we commit, help in making it from day to day, plus an expression of faith that the Kingdom of God will arrive. And all of this is addressed to God the Father not Jesus.
I have read and continue to read the Bible, growing in understanding of what the various parts were intended to say and how they all relate to each other. I do NOT read it to quote mine fortune cookie one-liners as many people seem to love to do. All too often the clear intended meaning in context is quite different from what the one-liner is claimed to mean. (No I am not talking about you. Your demonstrated depth of understanding is well beyond that level.)
Quote:
Being a Christian is very hard. For the world is filled with temptation of all sorts.
Being a righteous person is not easy regardless of orientation.
Quote:
Not sure I understand what you are asking here. Care to explain?
Here is what I said.
“One cannot do (1) and (4) without hearing about Jesus since they specifically reference Jesus. But one can do (2) and (3) plus what it says in Matt 19 without hearing about Jesus, these being as Paul says written in the heart. The question is: other than an additional reason to do (2) and (3) (resurrection/judgment), what else does Christianity offer toward salvation?”
A person who knows nothing about Christianity can nonetheless repent for sins (2), turn away from a sinful lifestyle (3), and lead a righteous life of morality and charity (as described in Matt 19). Christianity offers the idea of a future resurrection and judgment as an added incentive to do those three things. If a person who already and sincerely does those three things without knowing about Christianity (‘written in their hearts’), does Christianity offer any additional advantage to that person?
Three hundred years later people were will still arguing about what Son of God meant, specifically whether Jesus was really God in the flesh. Ultimately anything other than the ‘official’ (state mandated) take on the matter was made illegal. And the official resolution of the matter – the Trinity concept – is considered a mystery beyond human comprehension. Basically believing that Jesus is the Son of God is believing what one is told to be the case. We may note that Jesus himself never says he is the Son of God.
Ovcourse, hence why I said "and/or". God in the flesh and/or God's Son. It's one of the other. I do not believe the way you choose to interpret the Trinity will cause you to be unsaved.
Quote:
Interestingly, none of the Gospels use the word atone (in any form) or the word sacrifice with regard to Jesus. Jesus dies for us, no explanation of what that means. Paul uses the word atonement only once (and sacrifice not at all) but he refers to the death of Jesus as countering sin numerous times. Exactly what that means and why Jesus dying should have that effect is not explained. The ten different theories I mentioned show that these questions are not easily answered from reading scripture. Again it seems as if believing in Jesus dying for our sins is not something one understands but accepts because one is told to accept it.
Atone can mean "for". The main point is Jesus died for us as a way of salvation.
Quote:
Agreed. But an explicit message of Jesus (and that is what we are talking about) is that we are to avoid specific sinful actions and perform specific righteous actions. Jesus says that this is how one gets eternal life and even downplays his role in the matter. Yet so many Christians repeatedly claim that this is not the case. This IS the explicit, mandatory and (according to Jesus) sufficient prerequisite for eternal life. Instead faith alone is put forth as the only way.
We are to avoid ALL sinful actions and try to live a righteous life as prescribed by the Bible.
As I already told you, Faith and works go hand in hand. True faith produces works / fruit. HOWEVER, for example a wicked man that has never in his life done a good deed accepts Christs / puts faith in Christ and repents for his sins and dies immediately after still having done no good deeds / works he is still saved. Thus, faith ALONE can save under certain circumstances. For most of us your faith will need to be accompanied with a new life (born again) which will produce works / fruit.
Quote:
Jesus told us how to pray. The Lord’s prayer is about asking for: help in avoiding sin, forgiveness for sins we commit, help in making it from day to day, plus an expression of faith that the Kingdom of God will arrive. And all of this is addressed to God the Father not Jesus.
Not sure the point you are making here. We are instructed to pray regularly.
Quote:
I have read and continue to read the Bible, growing in understanding of what the various parts were intended to say and how they all relate to each other. I do NOT read it to quote mine fortune cookie one-liners as many people seem to love to do. All too often the clear intended meaning in context is quite different from what the one-liner is claimed to mean. (No I am not talking about you. Your demonstrated depth of understanding is well beyond that level.)
Yes, it is important to read the Bible to grow in one's Faith. And we should take the Bible as a whole and not try to cherry pick verses.
Quote:
Here is what I said.
“One cannot do (1) and (4) without hearing about Jesus since they specifically reference Jesus. But one can do (2) and (3) plus what it says in Matt 19 without hearing about Jesus, these being as Paul says written in the heart. The question is: other than an additional reason to do (2) and (3) (resurrection/judgment), what else does Christianity offer toward salvation?â€
A person who knows nothing about Christianity can nonetheless repent for sins (2), turn away from a sinful lifestyle (3), and lead a righteous life of morality and charity (as described in Matt 19). Christianity offers the idea of a future resurrection and judgment as an added incentive to do those three things. If a person who already and sincerely does those three things without knowing about Christianity (‘written in their hearts’), does Christianity offer any additional advantage to that person?
I already said, my belief is founded on faith. Thus I need to provide no proof.
Occams razor is firmly on my side (if this God is completely absent and hasn't made itself known despite it's supposed desire for everyone to convert and worship/believe in it, the simplest and most likely answer is that it doesn't exist) as is all available legitimate knowledge the human race has amassed.
I can tell you what side I would bet on if I had to. Also, you ignored my point about how horrible and destructive humans are in the name of God, not surprisingly. We'd still be living in the dark ages and basing our lives on all kinds of untrue manipulative crap if organized religion had it's way. That is because the entire point of most organized religion is to manipulate and control populations (all the fear based teaching is a dead giveaway of that). Power hungry humans wrote the bible, I cannot understand why people still take it seriously. It's a work of fiction meant to scare people into behaving and doing whatever the alleged holy men told them to.
Occams razor is firmly on my side (if this God is completely absent and hasn't made itself known despite it's supposed desire for everyone to convert and worship/believe in it, the simplest and most likely answer is that it doesn't exist) as is all available legitimate knowledge the human race has amassed.
Your opinion, which you can not prove. You know what they say about opinions right?
Quote:
I can tell you what side I would bet on if I had to. Also, you ignored my point about how horrible and destructive humans are in the name of God, not surprisingly. We'd still be living in the dark ages and basing our lives on all kinds of untrue manipulative crap if organized religion had it's way. That is because the entire point of most organized religion is to manipulate and control populations (all the fear based teaching is a dead giveaway of that). Power hungry humans wrote the bible, I cannot understand why people still take it seriously. It's a work of fiction meant to scare people into behaving and doing whatever the alleged holy men told them to.
Humans of every walk of life, religion, ideology have all done horrible things. This means nothing. People are people and have free will to do as they please, good and bad. Now if you want to try and argue the 10 Commandments as being evil or horrible, then by all means have at it.
Last edited by medellinheel; 01-30-2015 at 08:34 PM..
I put faith in Christ simply because it is the most appealing and resonates with me.
That's an unusually honest admission relative to most theists in my experience.
I have zero issue with someone who understands what faith actually is and that what they choose to have faith in is what appeals to and resonates with them. Because someone like that has a fighting chance of respecting that I withhold belief for reasons that are good and sufficient to me: lack of what I can accept as evidence. As you say, you're not obligated to provide evidence for your faith. Indeed you are not, so long as you don't claim that your faith is rational or reasonable in some externally validatable way.
That's an unusually honest admission relative to most theists in my experience.
I have zero issue with someone who understands what faith actually is and that what they choose to have faith in is what appeals to and resonates with them. Because someone like that has a fighting chance of respecting that I withhold belief for reasons that are good and sufficient to me: lack of what I can accept as evidence. As you say, you're not obligated to provide evidence for your faith. Indeed you are not, so long as you don't claim that your faith is rational or reasonable in some externally validatable way.
There are some things in life we have no way of proving. Deities and universal origins are a few of them.
Thus we are left to have faith in what ever way you want to rationalize this earth, be it spiritually or through science.
Someone is right. Guess we will all find out (or not) when we die.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
