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This is amazing. I had no idea and it makes total sense.
No more gas power generators.
Ford bragged about this years ago when the lightning was first announced its nothing new. It’s also mostly a gimmick. If you want to back up your house get power walls (expensive) with solar, or a whole house generator. Powering your house with your truck you may need to drive is not a good solution.
Ford bragged about this years ago when the lightning was first announced its nothing new. It’s also mostly a gimmick. If you want to back up your house get power walls (expensive) with solar, or a whole house generator. Powering your house with your truck you may need to drive is not a good solution.
Yup. Bit more complicated and costly than the headlines.
Much agreed: the argument is not that heat pumps produce no heat, it's that they cycle often to keep up with demand, thus making them expensive to operate.
If it's cycling often in the kind of temperatures Long Island gets for winters, then they are likely not heat pumps meant for cold weather.
It's already been covered in this thread that there are heat pumps built for colder weather and ones that are not. Previously up until the last few years, there were no mass market heat pumps offered in the US that can do well with the kind of winters Long Island has. They would need to cycle quite often and oftentimes run on backup, sometimes built into the system, resistance heaters. If you have a system that does that, then you likely are not using a heat pump intended for colder climates.
The ones that are have been available in East Asia for over a decade at this point. They have variable speeds that optimize for different temperatures rather than inefficiently run through a constant cycle of on and off and then defrosting. While it's certainly still possible to buy and install a heat pump that is not intended for cold climates (as in Long Island or even coastal Maine and parts of Minnesota kind of cold climate) and have a miserable time, it is probably a better idea to install a heat pump that can operate efficiently even in sub-zero and up to something like mid -10s and into the -20s F heat pumps.
People can post all the things they want about heat pumps not working in cold climates similar to Long Island (and to a certain degree worse than that of Long Island) all they want. There's no argument here that those don't exist. However, there's also no argument that there exists efficient heat pumps intended for cold climates that also exist. The important thing is to not be a jabroni and get the latter rather than the former if the intention is to use the heat pump as the main source of heating in winter.
Ford bragged about this years ago when the lightning was first announced its nothing new. It’s also mostly a gimmick. If you want to back up your house get power walls (expensive) with solar, or a whole house generator. Powering your house with your truck you may need to drive is not a good solution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NSHL10
Yup. Bit more complicated and costly than the headlines.
The optimal, but more expensive solution is to get both. This way you can potentially run off the stationary battery when the vehicle is not plugged in and ferret energy from elsewhere to bring back if need be. This gets even better, but also even more expensive if you have solar panels on your home.
If it's cycling often in the kind of temperatures Long Island gets for winters, then they are likely not heat pumps meant for cold weather.
It's already been covered in this thread that there are heat pumps built for colder weather and ones that are not. Previously up until the last few years, there were no mass market heat pumps offered in the US that can do well with the kind of winters Long Island has. They would need to cycle quite often and oftentimes run on backup, sometimes built into the system, resistance heaters. If you have a system that does that, then you likely are not using a heat pump intended for colder climates.
The ones that are have been available in East Asia for over a decade at this point. They have variable speeds that optimize for different temperatures rather than inefficiently run through a constant cycle of on and off and then defrosting. While it's certainly still possible to buy and install a heat pump that is not intended for cold climates (as in Long Island or even coastal Maine and parts of Minnesota kind of cold climate) and have a miserable time, it is probably a better idea to install a heat pump that can operate efficiently even in sub-zero and up to something like mid -10s and into the -20s F heat pumps.
People can post all the things they want about heat pumps not working in cold climates similar to Long Island (and to a certain degree worse than that of Long Island) all they want. There's no argument here that those don't exist. However, there's also no argument that there exists efficient heat pumps intended for cold climates that also exist. The important thing is to not be a jabroni and get the latter rather than the former if the intention is to use the heat pump as the main source of heating in winter.
I appreciate the time you took in your reply; I did some reading before responding:
I agree that some heat pumps are better than others in colder climates. What's indisputable, however, is that traditional gas powered furnaces produce heat that's warmer at the register.
What would behoove me to move to a heat pump? Simply stated: after coming outside, I appreciate warm heat coming out of the register; this is especially true in a drafty house.
Moreover, I currently reside in SC, where 51% of electricity is derived from nuclear powerplants. Nuclear powerplants are not subject to weather conditions to produce electric - and in this I reference the fairly recent debacle in TX - which, whether true or not, was blamed on the utility not winterizing solar panels and wind turbines.
I currently live 90 minutes away from the substation in NC, that was recently targeted and taken down.
My point being in mentioning all of this: there are compromises with heat pumps that don't exist with furnaces powered by natural gas, and our electrical grid is very vulnerable. This leap of migrating towards heat pumps and EV's is putting the cart before the horse: organic expansion of electric technology should be encouraged, but the system, as it's currently setup, has quirks and concerns.
I appreciate the time you took in your reply; I did some reading before responding:
I agree that some heat pumps are better than others in colder climates. What's indisputable, however, is that traditional gas powered furnaces produce heat that's warmer at the register.
What would behoove me to move to a heat pump? Simply stated: after coming outside, I appreciate warm heat coming out of the register; this is especially true in a drafty house.
Moreover, I currently reside in SC, where 51% of electricity is derived from nuclear powerplants. Nuclear powerplants are not subject to weather conditions to produce electric - and in this I reference the fairly recent debacle in TX - which, whether true or not, was blamed on the utility not winterizing solar panels and wind turbines.
I currently live 90 minutes away from the substation in NC, that was recently targeted and taken down.
My point being in mentioning all of this: there are compromises with heat pumps that don't exist with furnaces powered by natural gas, and our electrical grid is very vulnerable. This leap of migrating towards heat pumps and EV's is putting the cart before the horse: organic expansion of electric technology should be encouraged, but the system, as it's currently setup, has quirks and concerns.
I don't dispute that traditional gas powered furnaces produce higher temperatures at the register at all. That's expected given the temperature needed for combustion as opposed to how heat pumps work. Some people like that much hotter heat at the source, and I can respect that though I do not prefer it. However, it does not change that cold climate heat pumps can now efficiently keep homes warm in winters like the sort Long Island at even its worst gets.
I think it's likely that since you live in SC, the heat pumps you are familiar with are likely not the variable speed heat pumps intended for cold climates. That also falls in line with what was said about constant cycling. This was the kind of heat pump we had in East Asia in the early 90s that I remember also doing that. It was in the late 00s or so that East Asia started having these far more efficient in colder winter variable speed heat pumps designed for colder weathers and generally more efficient and even operation. Those I started seeing in the US only a few years ago.
I think it makes sense to spend more resources on hardening the electrical grid as it's a lot more useful for endpoint users. It powers communications, heating, cooking, mobility, life-saving medical devices, etc. Natural gas can do some of these things well, but it cannot do all of them well. Electricity can do all of these well and it even has a much more flexible pathway of conversion from other energy sources. Nearly every major energy source we use has an effective pathway conversion to electricity. That's natural gas, gasoline, diesel, coal, nuclear, solar panels, turbines in wind or hydroelectric applications, etc., but that is not true of natural gas.
Additionally, a lot of what you could use natural gas for as an endpoint consumer such as heating is actually more efficient round trip to turn into electricity in combined cycle generator, transmit it, and then use a heat pump since the coefficient of performance for heat pumps is so much higher than that of natural gas heating that it in most conditions for Long Island weather, the heat pump wins out despite the generation and transmission loss. Hardening the grid means a few things here, but some of this can actually take place even on the consumer household level with stationary storage batteries and solar panels as long as your box is setup to have a safe disconnect from the grid if it's down. This can also happen on a larger neighborhood or even larger utility level. Ultimately, I think investing in more natural gas consumer endpoint use is inefficient and rather inflexible use of resources and will also entice us further into falling into a sunk cost fallacy.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 01-04-2023 at 09:17 AM..
I think it's likely that since you live in SC, the heat pumps you are familiar with are likely not the variable speed heat pumps intended for cold climates. That also falls in line with what was said about constant cycling. This was the kind of heat pump we had in East Asia in the early 90s that I remember also doing that. It was in the late 00s or so that East Asia started having these far more efficient in colder winter variable speed heat pumps designed for colder weathers and generally more efficient and even operation. Those I started seeing in the US only a few years ago.
I thank you for having taken the time to educate me; you've given me things to read up on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
Hardening the grid means a few things here, but some of this can actually take place even on the consumer household level with stationary storage batteries and solar panels as long as your box is setup to have a safe disconnect from the grid if it's down.
It frustrates me to no end, how the Federal government can send 200 million to Ukraine, yet it cannot provide subsidies to homeowners to retrofit their homes with solar panels. For while some might argue that it's not the government's place to fund such things, I see our grid as being the US's achilles heal - quite possibly a matter of National security. Decentralizing the grid would bolster our security, in addition to achieving goals of moving away from fossil fuels.
My point being in mentioning all of this: there are compromises with heat pumps that don't exist with furnaces powered by natural gas, and our electrical grid is very vulnerable. This leap of migrating towards heat pumps and EV's is putting the cart before the horse: organic expansion of electric technology should be encouraged, but the system, as it's currently setup, has quirks and concerns.
Modern day furnaces utilize electricity despite running on natural gas. If you have a digital thermostat, multiple zones, and/or auto ignite function - you are just as vulnerable as if you had a heat pump. Steam heat or baseboard heat on a single zone probably would function fine.
Only difference is, the heat pump utilizes a lot of energy vs low voltage system that can be backed up more easily.
I love all the talk about what happens if we lose electricity? Are people that dumb? Oil burner needs electric to start, oh, and electric is needed to pump that hot air/water, same for gas. So guess what? Your f'd no matter what. The issue I have with heat pumps,.is the government shoving them down our throat. It's beyond irresponsible for them to do that. Is it the future? Absolutely, but it doesn't have to happen immediately.
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