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you did not even read what I posted did you? if you did how did you fail to see this
Let's take for instance the word bow, in the Greek the word is kampto, and it means to bend the knee in honour and religious veneration and it is only used for religious veneration in scripture.
Now let's look at the other word, confess. The word confess here is the Greek word exomologeo meaning to acknowledge openly and joyfully, to celebrate in praise of ones honour.
The bowing and confession is done in religious veneration and joyfully celebrate in praise.
Now does that sound like they are doing it out of sniveling shame?
You need to let go of mans teaching and get back into the study of His word and let ONLY the Holy Spirit be your guide.
I did read your post in its entirety.
Given that we already know dogmatically and infallibly that hell is real and people really go there, we have to interpret the "every knee will bow and every tongue confess" verses in light of that.
Given that we already know dogmatically and infallibly that hell is real and people really go there, we have to interpret the "every knee will bow and every tongue confess" verses in light of that.
All four hells are real. One of those hells is sheol. In Fathers gracious purpose every last one of them are consummated within Himself, the Lake of Theos, radiating with theion and theioo.
Death & the other hells shall be no more!
That ἐν in the Name of Jesus every knee shall bow in worship, not "at" His Name, but in/ἐν His Name.
For those who have experienced the wonder of being in/ ἐν Him, the outcome is obvious. The entire universe ultimately sings in harmonious strains.....
"You are Lord."
This is NOT perfunctory genuflections! NOT!
That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow (ινα εν τω ονοματ Ιησου παν γονυ καμψη). First aorist active subjunctive of καμπτω, old verb, to bend, to bow, in purpose clause with ινα. Not perfunctory genuflections whenever the name of Jesus is mentioned, but universal acknowledgment of the majesty and power of Jesus who carries his human name and nature to heaven. This universal homage to Jesus is seen in Romans 8:22; Ephesians 1:20-22 and in particular Revelation 5:13.
Under the earth (καταχθονιων). Homeric adjective for departed souls, subterranean, simply the dead. Here only in the N.T.
If someone is a Saint in heaven, that doesn't mean that everything they said or did while on earth was infallible or even good or correct. Saints are humans like you and I who were prone to sin and error in their life on earth.
This would also include your pope. so what you are in effect saying is that all these saints and popes are fallible but when they get together they are infallible. Well did they not all get together at the council of Nicea? if they are infallible when together what happened to this in fallibleness then? why did they not know then that the salvation of all was not correct? Seems to me they were fallible then just as they are today.
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As I attempted to explain to you, universal salvation could not have been authoritatively considered an error until it was authoritatively declared to be so.
by a bunch of fallible men.
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Come on pneuma, think about this realistically. Unless the Church has dogmatically pronounced on literally every possible controversy (an impossible task), it has to tolerate some error at any given time. That's just reality.
No it does not mike, your church has known for a long time that the abominations that were practiced within its walls were in error but all they did was cover it up and move priest from one place to another all along knowing that priest would continue in his evil ways. That is not tolerating some errors mike that is tolerating and hiding what is an abomination unto the Lord.
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If the Church holds to a teaching in an infallible and dogmatic way, then it's impossible for that to be overturned. Tradition (with a capital "T") is unchangeable.
within its own system it sure does seem that way, but the system is obviously broken.
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It's not, but ok.
Maybe I'm not, but I'm not required to be. I'm confident that if they were to appear now in the flesh they would attest that we ought to listen to the voice of the Church rather than them.
Your confidence in your church I do not question, I question the competence of your church.
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Sorry for the confusion. My point I intended to make is that there is no definite agreement among scholars, whether Catholic or universalist, about what exactly the Gregory's taught re: universal salvation.
then they have not read much if anything he wrote.
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I feel like you're being obtuse here. You're not thinking about what rooting out error actually looks like in real time. It's a process that requires much time, effort, and debate.
All it requires is the Holy Spirit to lead and not any man.
Given that we already know dogmatically and infallibly that hell is real and people really go there, we have to interpret the "every knee will bow and every tongue confess" verses in light of that.
this is a perfect example of holding ones doctrine over what the scriptures actually proclaim.
It does not matter that the scriptures actually state the bowing is done in religious veneration, or that the scriptures actually state that the confession is done in joyful celebration and praise you would rather believe in the infallibility of your church dogma over the scriptures. something is wrong with this scenerio.
this is a perfect example of holding ones doctrine over what the scriptures actually proclaim.
It does not matter that the scriptures actually state the bowing is done in religious veneration, or that the scriptures actually state that the confession is done in joyful celebration and praise you would rather believe in the infallibility of your church dogma over the scriptures. something is wrong with this scenerio.
He is not alone. Mankind desire to live within the confines of what they think. If they can find a particular confession of dogma to support it, whoopie.
The way into change is by way of a personal encounter with the living God of Glory.
This would also include your pope. so what you are in effect saying is that all these saints and popes are fallible but when they get together they are infallible.
With further qualifications, yes that's basically correct.
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Originally Posted by pneuma
Well did they not all get together at the council of Nicea? if they are infallible when together what happened to this in fallibleness then?
Yes, the declarations made at Nicea are infallible and dogmatic. Paul was also infallible while he was composing his inspired epistles that made it into Sacred Scripture. What happened to his "fallibleness" when he was talking about the latest Antioch vs. Damascus football match with his homeboys?
Infallibility is not an active or "positive" trait. It's more of a passive, or negative trait. It protects from error, but doesn't necessarily actively enlighten with truth.
Do you see the difference?
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Originally Posted by pneuma
why did they not know then that the salvation of all was not correct? Seems to me they were fallible then just as they are today.
I have no idea.
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Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
As I attempted to explain to you, universal salvation could not have been authoritatively considered an error until it was authoritatively declared to be so.
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Originally Posted by pneuma
by a bunch of fallible men.
That's correct. God protects His Church, composed of fallible men, from error in certain situations such as the gathering together in Ecumenical Councils such as the Second Council of Constantinople that anathematized some of Origen's views.
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Originally Posted by pneuma
No it does not mike, your church has known for a long time that the abominations that were practiced within its walls were in error but all they did was cover it up and move priest from one place to another all along knowing that priest would continue in his evil ways. That is not tolerating some errors mike that is tolerating and hiding what is an abomination unto the Lord.
The Church has always dogmatically taught that the illicit and abusive sex acts you're alluding to are abominable. Many clergymen within the Church rebelled against this dogmatic teaching and engaged in this abominable behavior, and many clergymen in their imprudence or even complicity enabled the abuses to go on.
This is not an example of "teaching error". This is an example of practicing evil.
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Originally Posted by pneuma
within its own system it sure does seem that way, but the system is obviously broken.
The alleged "brokenness" of the "system" is not so obvious to many, including me.
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Originally Posted by pneuma
Your confidence in your church I do not question, I question the confidence of your church.
That much is clear.
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Originally Posted by pneuma
All it requires is the Holy Spirit to lead and not any man.
But how does the Holy Spirit lead, practically speaking? He leads through men.
this is a perfect example of holding ones doctrine over what the scriptures actually proclaim.
It does not matter that the scriptures actually state the bowing is done in religious veneration, or that the scriptures actually state that the confession is done in joyful celebration and praise you would rather believe in the infallibility of your church dogma over the scriptures. something is wrong with this scenerio.
The two (Church dogma and Sacred Scripture) are not in conflict. The New Testament was written by churchmen for the Church. They have to be interpreted in that light.
I have to admit that I'm surprised by this response, as I didn't take you as a Sola Scriptura type...
He is not alone. Mankind desire to live within the confines of what they think. If they can find a particular confession of dogma to support it, whoopie.
The way into change is by way of a personal encounter with the living God of Glory.
You're suggesting that I've never had a "personal encounter with the living God of Glory"?
That's some claim to make for someone who knows nothing about me.
Mike: I am suggesting no such thing. Your devotion to your church is evident. I have a friend who is a devout R.C., as well as his entire family. The last time I saw him (in a social gathering), he walked up to me without one word of pleasantry & declared...
I love Jesus Christ
My friend, any individual who loves the Lord Jesus Christ, Rosey loves.
With further qualifications, yes that's basically correct.
Yes, the declarations made at Nicea are infallible and dogmatic. Paul was also infallible while he was composing his inspired epistles that made it into Sacred Scripture. What happened to his "fallibleness" when he was talking about the latest Antioch vs. Damascus football match with his homeboys?
Infallibility is not an active or "positive" trait. It's more of a passive, or negative trait. It protects from error, but doesn't necessarily actively enlighten with truth.
Do you see the difference?
I have no idea.
That's correct. God protects His Church, composed of fallible men, from error in certain situations such as the gathering together in Ecumenical Councils such as the Second Council of Constantinople that anathematized some of Origen's views.
The Church has always dogmatically taught that the illicit and abusive sex acts you're alluding to are abominable. Many clergymen within the Church rebelled against this dogmatic teaching and engaged in this abominable behavior, and many clergymen in their imprudence or even complicity enabled the abuses to go on.
This is not an example of "teaching error". This is an example of practicing evil.
The alleged "brokenness" of the "system" is not so obvious to many, including me.
That much is clear.
But how does the Holy Spirit lead, practically speaking? He leads through men.
well mike all I can say is that if you are happy following the traditions of men, then I will leave you alone to do so. Gods real church are those who follow in the footsteps of Jesus Christ, and yes it is made up of many members and the ONLY HEAD they will follow is JESUS CHRIST.
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