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You will find Mike, the evangelical segment of Christ is not alone. Out of zillions of denominational views, there is absolutely a preponderance towards either annihilation or endless torment, both of which makes our God a giant failure.
"Reason teaches us that good having a divine principle, ought to be stronger than evil, which is essentially nothing but disorder and depravation; that evil putting man into a state of violence, that state cannot continue for ever; that this state of violence supposes its contrary in man, struggling against it…that God being the God of order, and the undoubted Sovereign of the universe, can never consent that disorder and confusion should prevail there for ever." ~Marie Huber
"I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of God, the time when all things shall be subject to Him and when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor 15:24-28). For me, this has certain consequences. If one man remains outside of the love of God at the end of time, it means that one man has defeated the love of God, and that is impossible. Further, there is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of our God. If God was no more than a King or judge, then it would be possible to speak of his triumph, if His enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and wiped out. But God is not only king and Judge, God is Father, He is indeed Father more than anything else. No father could be happy while there were members of his family for ever in agony. No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family. The only triumph a father can know is to have all of his family back home again. -Dr. Wm. Barclay
The logic of this view is impeccable yet it seems to be resisted so easily. I do not understand it, Rosey.
You mean like the prodigal son? Regardless, I would not punish them or stop loving them because of their waywardness. I would be like God, patient and long-suffering while they experienced the consequences of their ways.
The prodigal son did return and was reconciled. Not all prodigal children do return. That doesn't mean the father ever stops loving them.
But we have one life to live. Not everyone realizes the consequences of their actions until it's too late, and some don't care anyway.
The prodigal son did return and was reconciled. Not all prodigal children do return. That doesn't mean the father ever stops loving them.
But we have one life to live. Not everyone realizes the consequences of their actions until it's too late, and some don't care anyway.
You simply believe in an unreasonable God if you think that we have sufficient and unambiguous information and knowledge to know exactly what God wants from us and can permanently choose for or against it OR ELSE it will be too late if we choose wrong and then die.
The logic of this view is impeccable yet it seems to be resisted so easily. I do not understand it, Rosey.
There is a deep seated idea in some peoples hearts for vengeance. It is simply not good enough for our God to ultimately change and transform the most wicked rascals of depravity. My brother, Rosey does not understand the deep working of the Father, or His glorious ways . What I do know is the One who made us will be totally satisfied with the final outcome.
"Don't lean on your own understanding. If your trust in God is limited by your understanding of His ways, you will always have a limited trust."
“From the beginning God was and always will be a God of all grace. He purposes to be All in all of His creation; but every man in his own foreordained and previously marked out order. No doctrine is of God that does not include, ‘Having made known to us the secret of His will, according to His own benevolent design, which He previously purposed in Himself: that in the fullness of the ages He will gather together in one all in Christ, both those who are in the heavens and those who are on earth, even in Him.’
It is wrong to teach that this age of grace will soon end. In our redeemed bodies we will be righteous, and in the ages to come we will be teaching the grace of God to others.” -Sherwood Michael-
“Christian tradition overlooks a key text that clearly quantifies the meaning of aion.
In 1 Corinthians 15:24, Paul tells us that Jesus will be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father. That’s not an eternal reign in any possible context. The clear statement that Christ ‘gives up’ the kingdom defines what the Greek noun aion must mean. Jesus is God’s mediator with mankind who reigns only until He gets the job done. That job is winning our conciliation with God.
Paul referred to Jesus as the eonian, not eternal God, and gave Jesus reign over specific time periods leading up to the conclusion of His reign. Clearly there is a progression of eons that have beginnings and endings. All eons end when Christ’s reign ends, after which what is eternal begins.” -Dusean Berkich-
“To argue that God is 'trying His best' to save all mankind, but that the majority of men will not let Him save them, is to insist that the will of the Creator is impotent, and that the will of the creature is omnipotent.” ~A. W. Pink
“Here is a fundamental difference between the man of faith and the man of unbelief. The unbeliever is 'of the world', judges everything by worldly standards, views life from the standpoint of time and sense, and weighs everything in the balances of his own carnal making. But the man of faith brings in God, looks at everything from His standpoint, estimates values by spiritual standards, and views life in the light of eternity. Doing this, he receives whatever comes as from the hand of God. Doing this, his heart is calm in the midst of the storm. Doing this, he rejoices in hope of the glory of God.”
I'm not convinced that it's God's desire for everyone to end up in heaven.
In Luke 10 when Jesus pronounces His woes upon the cities of Judah, He says that if His miracles had been performed in Gentile cities such as Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented and believed.
God is infinitely patient, but that doesn't mean His patience has to last forever. God is under no obligation to save any of us.
Souls ending up in hell is not a "failure" on God's part if those souls want hell and God wants them there.
I think the seriousness of Adam's fall is being underestimated, and I think advocates for universalism are looking at the world too individualistically.
Why not be grateful that God made a way for ANY of us to be saved, rather than whining about God's supposed "cruelty" for not dragging every soul to heaven whether they want to go or not?
It seems to me to be a preferable disposition to say "why me, Lord when you didn't have to save anyone?"
I'm not convinced that it's God's desire for everyone to end up in heaven.
In Luke 10 when Jesus pronounces His woes upon the cities of Judah, He says that if His miracles had been performed in Gentile cities such as Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented and believed.
God is infinitely patient, but that doesn't mean His patience has to last forever. God is under no obligation to save any of us.
Souls ending up in hell is not a "failure" on God's part if those souls want hell and God wants them there.
I think the seriousness of Adam's fall is being underestimated, and I think advocates for universalism are looking at the world too individualistically.
Why not be grateful that God made a way for ANY of us to be saved, rather than whining about God's supposed "cruelty" for not dragging every soul to heaven whether they want to go or not?
It seems to me to be a preferable disposition to say "why me, Lord when you didn't have to save anyone?"
Why do you think anyone had to be saved in the first place? Life is a process of developing from infancy to maturity through learning. Why do you think our spirituality follows a different paradigm??? Why would our species' infantile spiritual errors be cursed or require salvation instead of correction and achievement?
Why do you think anyone had to be saved in the first place? Life is a process of developing from infancy to maturity through learning. Why do you think our spirituality follows a different paradigm???
In a sense I can agree with that, but that doesn't mean that there's not real collateral damage along the way in the form of eternally damned souls.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Why would our species' infantile spiritual errors be cursed or require salvation instead of correction and achievement?
I wouldn't classify Adam's fall as an "infantile spiritual error". He was created already in a state far beyond anything we could hope to experience in this life; and yet he disobeyed God's direct command, knowing the consequences. There was no grey area in God's command, and Adam could not feign ignorance or immaturity. He was far more knowledgeable about the nature of God and far more mature than you or I.
In a sense I can agree with that, but that doesn't mean that there's not real collateral damage along the way in the form of eternally damned souls.
I wouldn't classify Adam's fall as an "infantile spiritual error". He was created already in a state far beyond anything we could hope to experience in this life; and yet he disobeyed God's direct command, knowing the consequences. There was no grey area in God's command, and Adam could not feign ignorance or immaturity. He was far more knowledgeable about the nature of God and far more mature than you or I.
That is absolutely preposterous. He had to obtain the knowledge of Good and Evil!!!! Spiritually, he was an infant in a physically mature body. Spiritual infancy cannot be avoided by any of us and it could not be avoided by Adam or Eve. That is the fundamental problem we face -- surviving spiritual infancy and learning how to become spiritually mature.
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The logic of this view is impeccable yet it seems to be resisted so easily. I do not understand it, Rosey.