Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It's true the Baptist have Calvinist roots, can't deny that!
But you will be safe to bet the farm Charlie is not one of them!
Nor is any Baptist I know at this time, but they are out there.
There are a lot of flavors of Baptists. Many of them are Reformed.
Yes. I'm Reformed in my Soteriology. I disagree with Calvin on many things pertaining to Church polity, but I do believe he was correct on his 5 points. I also disagree with him on Eschatology, and consider myself a Dispensationalist.
You and I disagree on election. That's ok. I'll still call you brother and hope you'd consider me a brother.
if you don't know by now how we deal with those scripture BF you are as blind as charlie and his mentor as these things have been explained to you time and again.
I've seen unis overemphasize certain verses, rip them out of context, and ignore clear Scriptures that say that only people who believe are saved.
There are a lot of flavors of Baptists. Many of them are Reformed.
Yes. I'm Reformed in my Soteriology. I disagree with Calvin on many things pertaining to Church polity, but I do believe he was correct on his 5 points. I also disagree with him on Eschatology, and consider myself a Dispensationalist.
You and I disagree on election. That's ok. I'll still call you brother and hope you'd consider me a brother.
Yes I do, Brother! We can be wrong on all our beliefs but if we get Jesus right, we will make it!
Thank God He is the determining factor and not what else we believe!
What concerns me is the doctrine believed that doesn't get Jesus right!
That is entirely up to you mike, the information is there whether you avail yourself of it or not is up to you.
How do you know whether it is the more relevant parts if all you did was skim? and what you should have done instead of using allegedly say was to look it up instead.
The church did not believe Origen was in error for his belief in the salvation of all, what they disagreed with was that Origen believed we started out/were created as spirit beings.
After all both Gregory's who are canonized saints believed in the salvation of all and both of them sat on the council of Nicea and if memory serves me correct one of them was the president of that council.
Now if the church was against the belief of the salvation of all what in the world were these two Gregory's doing on the council of Nicea?
Does not the Catholic church believe the Nicea creed to be the apostolic creed?
There were in fact 6 churches of the early church, 4 of them held to universal salvation, 1 believed in eternal torment and 1 believed in annihilation.
Jesus was referring to the law.
That probably came from a site speaking against the salvation of all. Please give the link to where you found this.
Who says the truth was lost? God has always had a people who have taught that the gates of hell will not prevail against the real church (the universal church). the church you believe in states the the gates of hell will prevail against Christ and His church for in your church you hold that millions upon millions of people will be eternally tormented. What else is that but the gates of hell prevailing and the failure of Christ and the church?
There was no church (as an institution) for the gates of hell to prevail against, just the sincere believers and followers of Christ and His Holy Spirit. It is the churches and institutions formed on Christ that Hell has not only prevailed against but completely dominated for millennia. But they could not eliminate the Truth God has "written in our hearts" of Christ's agape love and forgiveness present in the Comforter who abides with us to guide us to it in faith, hope, and love.
That is entirely up to you mike, the information is there whether you avail yourself of it or not is up to you.
It's not so much "information" as it is an editorial though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
How do you know whether it is the more relevant parts if all you did was skim? and what you should have done instead of using allegedly say was to look it up instead.
Well, in a quality work, the chapter or section heading titles should be helpful in directing the reader to which sections are most relevant to what the reader is looking for...
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
The church did not believe Origen was in error for his belief in the salvation of all, what they disagreed with was that Origen believed we started out/were created as spirit beings.
After all both Gregory's who are canonized saints believed in the salvation of all and both of them sat on the council of Nicea and if memory serves me correct one of them was the president of that council.
Now if the church was against the belief of the salvation of all what in the world were these two Gregory's doing on the council of Nicea?
Yes Origen believed in universalism, and there may very well have been other prominent Catholics who believed in it. It was indeed possible to be both a faithful Catholic and a universalist in the first centuries of the Church. It was probably a debated issue, and universalism was not explicitly condemned by the Church until the 6th century. Ever since then, we have known dogmatically that universalism is an error.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
Does not the Catholic church believe the Nicea creed to be the apostolic creed?
There were in fact 6 churches of the early church, 4 of them held to universal salvation, 1 believed in eternal torment and 1 believed in annihilation.
I want to backtrack a bit and concede that some prominent early Christians likely did teach universalism - as a matter a fact we know that some did. But I want to qualify that they did not teach universalism authoritatively. They taught it speculatively. As I said, it's an issue that the Church as a body did not pronounce upon until the 6th century, so it was up for debate until that time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
That probably came from a site speaking against the salvation of all. Please give the link to where you found this.
Who says the truth was lost? God has always had a people who have taught that the gates of hell will not prevail against the real church (the universal church). the church you believe in states the the gates of hell will prevail against Christ and His church for in your church you hold that millions upon millions of people will be eternally tormented. What else is that but the gates of hell prevailing and the failure of Christ and the church .
The Church is here and visible, and it is universal (Catholic). It is the ark of salvation for the world. The fact that many people choose not to climb on board does not imply that Christ or the Church has failed.
If God allowed 1/3 of the angels to fall with no hope for redemption; who are we, being lower than the angels, to expect preferential treatment - a second chance after death? And we were offered redemption! How much worse for us to spurn it! The angels received no such offer.
It's true the Baptist have Calvinist roots, can't deny that!
But you will be safe to bet the farm Charlie is not one of them!
Nor is any Baptist I know at this time, but they are out there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
There are a lot of flavors of Baptists. Many of them are Reformed.
Yes. I'm Reformed in my Soteriology. I disagree with Calvin on many things pertaining to Church polity, but I do believe he was correct on his 5 points. I also disagree with him on Eschatology, and consider myself a Dispensationalist.
You and I disagree on election. That's ok. I'll still call you brother and hope you'd consider me a brother.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie24
Yes I do, Brother! We can be wrong on all our beliefs but if we get Jesus right, we will make it!
Thank God He is the determining factor and not what else we believe!
What concerns me is the doctrine believed that doesn't get Jesus right!
In other words, you are seeking to be allies, regardless of your differences? LMAO
In other words, you are seeking to be allies, regardless of your differences? LMAO
If you understood all that matters is Jesus Christ and Him crucified for the sins of the world. Seeking to understand Him and why He left Glory to become man in order to redeem us, that you are hopelessly lost and undone without Him, you would understand that we all have different beliefs but the one thing that matters in common, man must be born-again by faith in what He did for us on Calvary and His resurrection.
It's not so much "information" as it is an editorial though.
an editorial packed with information.
Quote:
Well, in a quality work, the chapter or section heading titles should be helpful in directing the reader to which sections are most relevant to what the reader is looking for...
The problem is when you skip parts and go to only the part that might be of interest to you, you miss the flow of the argument.
Quote:
Yes Origen believed in universalism, and there may very well have been other prominent Catholics who believed in it. It was indeed possible to be both a faithful Catholic and a universalist in the first centuries of the Church. It was probably a debated issue, and universalism was not explicitly condemned by the Church until the 6th century. Ever since then, we have known dogmatically that universalism is an error.
So for the first 500 years it was ok according to the church to believe in the salvation of all, but its not ok now because in the 6th century it was condemned?
Does that not prove my point that the early church believed differently then they do today? and that in the 6th century they fell into error?
Quote:
I want to backtrack a bit and concede that some prominent early Christians likely did teach universalism - as a matter a fact we know that some did. But I want to qualify that they did not teach universalism authoritatively. They taught it speculatively. As I said, it's an issue that the Church as a body did not pronounce upon until the 6th century, so it was up for debate until that time.
So the two sainted Gregory's only taught it speculatively? You have obviously never read any of their works to say such a thing. and saying it was debated up till then is saying the early church allowed error to be taught until the 6th century and it was only after the 6th century did they get it correct.
Either way you want to look at it mike the church was either wrong in its early days or it is wrong now.
Thank you, but you did not mention about those who disagreed with Millar, and that you can buy the book today shows Millar to be wrong.
Quote:
The Church is here and visible, and it is universal (Catholic). It is the ark of salvation for the world. The fact that many people choose not to climb on board does not imply that Christ or the Church has failed.
If God allowed 1/3 of the angels to fall with no hope for redemption; who are we, being lower than the angels, to expect preferential treatment - a second chance after death? And we were offered redemption! How much worse for us to spurn it! The angels received no such offer.
That you cannot see that the belief in eternal torment does not equate with the gates of hell prevailing over Christ and the church just tells me it would not matter what information I gave you , you would stick with the church doctrine of the 6th century over what the early church actually believed.
But for other who just might be interested here is another book that also speaks of the history of the early church and the salvation of all.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
There was no church (as an institution) for the gates of hell to prevail against, just the sincere believers and followers of Christ and His Holy Spirit. It is the churches and institutions formed on Christ that Hell has not only prevailed against but completely dominated for millennia. But they could not eliminate the Truth God has "written in our hearts" of Christ's agape love and forgiveness present in the Comforter who abides with us to guide us to it in faith, hope, and love.