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Excellent point. I cam to that realization 20 years ago. Calvinists and Universalists both agree that God saves us entirely of his doing. The difference is the scope. I don't know what a Uni does with the many verses indicating that not everyone will be saved. Because not everyone believes.
The fact is salvation is of His own doing! Anything that begins in man, ends in man.
" It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him." ~R.F. Weymouth
Excellent point. I cam to that realization 20 years ago. Calvinists and Universalists both agree that God saves us entirely of his doing. The difference is the scope. I don't know what a Uni does with the many verses indicating that not everyone will be saved. Because not everyone believes.
Bah! to Calvinism but the bible does say God saves us entirely of His own doing lest any man boast. Can't you guys see this? God enables our hearts first, then we reach out. God says I chose you not the other way around. Did the disciples go up to Jesus first and volunteer or did He hand pick them? Again, if your right and our salvation depends upon our belief, then man can boast once in heaven but the bible says no man can boast. God is AUTHOR and finisher of our faith....or not? Your saying no??
It doesn't matter if you claim Calvinism or not, you believe the Calvinist taught doctrine that man has no choice in his salvation!
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
Excellent point. I came to that realization 20 years ago. Calvinists and Universalists both agree that God saves us entirely of his doing. The difference is the scope. I don't know what a Uni does with the many verses indicating that not everyone will be saved. Because not everyone believes.
In fairness to me, the pdf you linked to is very long. I can't realistically be expected to just drop everything else I'm reading to read a lengthy universalist treatise.
That is entirely up to you mike, the information is there whether you avail yourself of it or not is up to you.
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That said, I did skim through some of the more relevant parts such as where the author allegedly cites some Church Fathers on the topic of universal salvation.
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I find the author's argument weak because it relies heavily on what the Fathers allegedly didn't say than on what they actually did say.
How do you know whether it is the more relevant parts if all you did was skim? and what you should have done instead of using allegedly say was to look it up instead.
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He also relies heavily on Origen, who is considered a Church Father but is not a canonized Saint. All orthodox Catholics know that Origen went off the rails at some point and he can't be trusted on every topic.
The church did not believe Origen was in error for his belief in the salvation of all, what they disagreed with was that Origen believed we started out/were created as spirit beings.
After all both Gregory's who are canonized saints believed in the salvation of all and both of them sat on the council of Nicea and if memory serves me correct one of them was the president of that council.
Now if the church was against the belief of the salvation of all what in the world were these two Gregory's doing on the council of Nicea?
Does not the Catholic church believe the Nicea creed to be the apostolic creed?
There were in fact 6 churches of the early church, 4 of them held to universal salvation, 1 believed in eternal torment and 1 believed in annihilation.
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In one section, the author concedes that the Pharisees believed in an eternal hell. How do you reckon that with Jesus' statement in Matthew 23:2-3 which legitimates the authority of their teachings: "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you"?
Jesus was referring to the law.
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I'd never heard of this J.W. Hanson, and I'm not sure why I should lend him any credibility. Upon doing a little research, I found that a Committee of fellow universalists had wanted to reprint some of Hanson's works decades after Hanson had died, but decided not to because "Biblical scholarship has made so many advances since the date of these books that they are practically obsolete."
That probably came from a site speaking against the salvation of all. Please give the link to where you found this.
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In spite of this thoroughly unconvincing argument, let's just say Hanson's and your thesis is true: that Christianity taught universalism for the first ~500 years.
I'm just thinking pragmatically. If that's true, then it means that at some point the Church apostatized and the truth was lost, rendering Christ's promises void. You're back to square one. What kind of a Savior promises to build a Church that the gates of hell will not prevail against, and the Church can't even last 500 years? It brings everything back into question. Was Jesus really who He said He was?
Who says the truth was lost? God has always had a people who have taught that the gates of hell will not prevail against the real church (the universal church). the church you believe in states the the gates of hell will prevail against Christ and His church for in your church you hold that millions upon millions of people will be eternally tormented. What else is that but the gates of hell prevailing and the failure of Christ and the church .
Excellent point. I cam to that realization 20 years ago. Calvinists and Universalists both agree that God saves us entirely of his doing. The difference is the scope. I don't know what a Uni does with the many verses indicating that not everyone will be saved. Because not everyone believes.
if you don't know by now how we deal with those scripture BF you are as blind as charlie and his mentor as these things have been explained to you time and again.
if you don't know by now how we deal with those scripture BF you are as blind as charlie and his mentor as these things have been explained to you time and again.
We well know how you twist the scriptures and the Greek to present something that's not there!
I challenge any of you URites to show some of that Junk, my favorite pass time is showing you exactly what it is, a lie!
We well know how you twist the scriptures and the Greek to present something that's not there!
I challenge any of you URites to show some of that Junk, my favorite pass time is showing you exactly what it is, a lie!
lmao charlie you have been shown time and time again and I know you cannot see it but have continually made yourself look ridiculous when trying to counter what you have been shown.
You are right, and I was referencing Baptistfundie as being Calvinist. Wake up, Charlie.
Give me a break, Jerwade, I haven't had all my coffee yet!
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