Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Charlie - This is what you asserted after posting Rev 20:11-15: In the bold, the sea that gave up the dead are the bodies of flesh lost in the oceans.
The death that was delivered up are the bodies of flesh in the grave.
The hell that delivered up the dead are the souls of man in hell.
The damned here are joined soul with flesh to face judgement, and cast into the lake of fire.
If you have nothing from scripture to support what you've asserted, say so.
I could sure speak to it.
Those bodies of water are inside people and nations, they have nothing to do with real water.
Jesus made fishers of men to save man from his waters, and Jesys himself came flowing out if the temple as a river that now would enter all waters with his own mind to bless waters or to curse the waters inside a person
What happens when you believe in Jesus.
John 7
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
What are the waters?
Revelation
And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the ***** sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
Psalms
4There is a river, the streams whereof shall make glad the city of God, the holy place of the tabernacles of the most High.
5God is in the midst of her; she shall not be moved: God shall help her, and that right early.
Revelation
Not talking about real water, and not talking about the earth opening up
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
So many more scriptures to learn what streams, rivers, oceans and ponds mean.
Last edited by Hannibal Flavius; 07-14-2021 at 11:07 PM..
What has still never been answered is the following.
If, in Matthew 25:46, it is speaking of "age-abiding punishment", then in John 3:16, only "age-abiding life" is promised.
So, I assume that the proponents of Universalism here want to believe that those who have life, only have it for an age?
Have you considered that the current age is the age of grace and that the next age will be a seven-year period called the Great Tribulation? As soon as that age begins, the current age will end; and those of you who have mere "age-abiding life", your lives will end.
This is truly the good news that I want to hear about! It really comforts my soul to know that all of us who have life are simply going to die.
Not!
Not to mention, no one has answered the question of whether they believe that after age-abiding life ends, there is consciousness in the soul.
What will the conscious soul experience when it is in a state of death.
Does not your gospel, if it is thought out to its logical conclusion, preach condemnation to the redeemed?
rude is rude just as sin is sin all you are doing now is trying to justify your rudeness.
I have also justified your rudeness, if its motivation is not rooted in what is written in John 15:18-25.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjGuru
Charlie my friend,
Do you make any distinction whatsoever between the "spirit" of man and the "fleshly nature" of man. Is it your belief that the "spirit" of man is cast into hell? I've asked this numerous times and you've yet to answer.
BTW, I told my cat that Faithless Charlie likes cat's too. She looked at me and hissed, it startled me so I immediately proclaimed the Good News of all being justified to life by Christ (Rom 5:18), and she started purring again...LOL
I guess that your cat also has itching ears.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rose2Luv
The Master declares He will draw al mankind to Himself. The koine is clear.
Draw = thelo
Drag off in power.
Impel.
All is pas, not tis.
The draw is absolute, not a few choice individuals, or many...
ALL = ALL
The drawing effect of the Holy Spirit can be resisted (Acts 7:51).
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Our free will cannot undo what Jesus accomplished and our salvation depends ONLY on what Jesus accomplished! Men have misled you, Charlie. They want you to accept their "precepts and doctrines of men" to be a member of their followers, but Jesus wants us to follow HIM!!!
He wanted there to be no doubt about His and God's Holy Spirit of agape love so He unambiguously demonstrated it with His body and life under the brutal hands of our savage ancestors while loving even His torturers and murderers. You ignore that evidence of God's Holy Spirit in favor of the "precepts and doctrines of men" at your own peril, Charlie.
You have misinterpreted the reason why Jesus submitted to the Cross.
Not in order to contradict statements that He had formerly made about the doctrines of hell;
But because He loved us enough to pay the penalty for our sins so that we would not have to go there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjGuru
Charlie, the soul of man consists of two natures, "flesh" and "spirit". Certainly you know this, right? When I use the term "flesh", I'm not speaking of the physical body. I'm speaking of the "natural man", the "old man", the "carnal nature" of the body that is sown in corruption. And perhaps why we keep talking past each other.
The physical body that is sown in corruption has a nature. It's that nature of the physical body that is separated from the spirit of the soul, and that is cast out in judgement. The spirit and soul of man are given a spiritual body in the resurrection of the dead. This will be the case for believers in the first resurrection (Rev 20:6), and also for unbelievers in the second resurrection (Rev 20:12). They both have bodies that were sown in corruption and are raised in incorruption. Read it, it's right here:
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
The difference between the first and second resurrection, is that the believers "flesh" has already been crucified in this world and comes not into judgement (Joh 5:24), for the believer's soul has already passed from death into life. However, for the unbeliever, this is not the case. They're judged according to their works (Rev 20:12). And in the unbelievers judgement, their flesh and works of the flesh (Gal 5:19-21) are cast out in judgement and sent to the lake of fire (this is where your hell fire and brimstone takes over...lol), and it does so to the saving of the spirit and soul. We find a similar example of this when Paul judged the fornicator in 1Co 5:5. The flesh and it's works were destroyed to the saving of the spirit.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Please point out in holy scripture where it says that the lake of fire is salvation.
If the lake of fire were salvation, would it not be those whose names ARE written in the book of life who would be cast there?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjGuru
How so Charlie. Read the text:
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
SHALL NOT SEE LIFE
And not only, but let's make this even more clear:
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
CONDEMNED ALREADY
Read it Charlie. Think about it Charlie. Was there ever a time when you did not believe? If there was, those two texts state unequivocally (according to your doctrines), that you will not see life and you're condemned already. Both verbs "see" and "condemned" are in the Gk. indicative mood. It's real Charlie and it's a statement of fact. How do you plan to escape these truth's Charlie?
The reality is that the one who believes has everlasting life; so when it says that the one who does not believe shall not see life, it is evident that when a man crosses over from unbelief to faith, he enters into the first thing and has everlasting life because he believes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjGuru
Faithless Charlie...lol, what is actually holding you back from faith in the goodness of Christ?
May I ask where your doctrines are coming from? You're an undeniable hardcore ET'er and an Arminian to boot. This could only have come about through indoctrination, such as by teachings from a particular school you attended or creed you read from.
Not through indoctrination; but rather by virtue of the fact that he is born again of the Holy Spirit; and therefore has an unction from the holy one, and "knows all things" (1 John 2:20,27).
For those who believe that all will eventually be saved...
I have no beef with you if you will acknowledge that Jesus (and believing in what He did on the Cross for you in taking the penalty for your sins) is the only way to salvation;
And if you will receive salvation through that narrow way yourselves.
Unfortunately for you, the doctrines of Universalism is the devil's way of telling you, as concerning this decision to receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour,
that there is no HURRY.
And I would remind you also of what it says in holy scripture.
Heb 9:27, And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Rev 20:10, And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Judgment at the Throne of God
Rev 20:11, And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13, And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14, And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15, And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Last edited by justbyfaith; 07-15-2021 at 12:48 AM..
What has still never been answered is the following.
If, in Matthew 25:46, it is speaking of "age-abiding punishment", then in John 3:16, only "age-abiding life" is promised.
So, I assume that the proponents of Universalism here want to believe that those who have life, only have it for an age?
Have you considered that the current age is the age of grace and that the next age will be a seven-year period called the Great Tribulation? As soon as that age begins, the current age will end; and those of you who have mere "age-abiding life", your lives will end.
This is truly the good news that I want to hear about! It really comforts my soul to know that all of us who have life are simply going to die.
Not!
Not to mention, no one has answered the question of whether they believe that after age-abiding life ends, there is consciousness in the soul.
What will the conscious soul experience when it is in a state of death.
Does not your gospel, if it is thought out to its logical conclusion, preach condemnation to the redeemed?
There are two words for the word, "Life."
One word depicts the holy place, "Life."
The other word depicts, " Abundant Life."
Abundant life in the Holy of Holies is far above the life in the Holy place, and so the Holy of Holies is known as the," Zoe Kingdom."
This abundant life Zoe Kingdom is the greatest of 3 kingdoms, and it is the kingdom Jesus referred to in saying that liars and thieves and the sexual immoral may never enter the kingdom of heaven."
There is also the least in the kingdom and Jesus told us out right why people will become the least, and while others become the greatest, the least in the kingdom is the outer court of darkness, it is the outer court of Gentiles. There is a good reason why the court is called darkness, ancient tradition.
It doesnt mean they arent saved, it just means that they will never enter into the higher kingdom, and we are given many examples of this higher abundant life kingdom which only consists of high priests.
I dont ever expect to progress that far and I seriously doubt that 100 people a century make it that far because it is almost unattainable..
For those who believe that all will eventually be saved...
I have no beef with you if you will acknowledge that Jesus (and believing in what He did on the Cross for you in taking the penalty for your sins) is the only way to salvation;
And if you will receive salvation through that narrow way yourselves.
Unfortunately for you, the doctrines of Universalism is the devil's way of telling you, as concerning this decision to receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour,
that there is no HURRY.
And I would remind you also of what it says in holy scripture.
Heb 9:27, And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Rev 20:10, And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Judgment at the Throne of God
Rev 20:11, And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13, And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14, And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15, And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Everything you are talking about is Jewish tradition, Jewish rituals in Jewish Holy days, and their Jewish idioms made from those holy days
Revelation covers the temple during Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Sukkot and Shemini Atzeret, and that narrow way you speak of, it is the path of a person studying to be a high priest of Judaism.
You keep using tradtions, rituals and idioms used in temple service for very specific reason but its Judaism, so Christian's dont get it, what's more, they dont even want to understand.
How incredible right?
How could the New Testament concern the traditions, riturals and idioms spoken by priests and congregation during 7 feasts?
Why is it so hard to understand that you are reading a book about Jews, by Jews, who were raised in Judaism by Jews?
Do ou think it's not about God's Temple and God's religion?
Every single thing Jesus did was in Judaism as a Pharisee.
Christianity was a legal sect of Judaism legally recognized by Rome as Israel had become a province of Rome in 6 A.D., and you just couldnt start a new religion in Rome, it had to be authorized and Christianity was a legal authorized sect of Judaism
The religion Jesus walked in every day, in every feast, in every year, and you are using idioms about the temple, the comings and goings of the temple and what is said and done by priests during holy days but you dont know it.
In 3 of the 11, it is directed towards none other than the Scribes & Pharisees.
What is damnation?
koine ktisis =
1. Judgment
2. A separation.
3. A decision given (right or wrong).
4. Condemnation & penalty.
Koine krima =
1. A decree.
2. Condemnation of wrong (mild or severe).
3. That to which one is sentenced.
Questions =
1. What is greater krima?
2. Why is (perrissos krima) applied specifically to Scribes and Pharasees?
3. What is the difference between perrissos krima & standard krima?
4. Standard krima applies to those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Why?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
