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The soul is immortal. It does not die (Matthew 10:28). When the unbeliever's soul rejoins his body when it is resurrected at the end of the Millennium, he is sent into the lake of fire where he will reside forever (Revelation 20:11-15).
Man owes God perfect righteousness. Man cannot meet that requirement. Therefore, the Second Person of the trinity became a perfect man who could meet that requirement qualifying Him to pay the penalty for man's sins. Anyone who rejects Christ as Savior must stand on his own relative righteousness which God must reject. Since the unbeliever will continue to exist forever, his suffering and torment which will be the natural consequences of eternal existence separated from God, in addition to being in the presence of the countless other people who have rejected Christ, all of whom will be suffering, and the fire, and the hopelessness of his situation, will result in eternal torment. He will have brought it all upon himself.
In Matthew 10:28, the word translated as 'destroy' is the Greek word Apollumi, and does not mean cessation of existence. It does not mean the loss of being. It means the loss of 'well-being'. It means to be brought to a state of utter ruin and eternal uselessness in the place of everlasting torment where there will be 'weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:42,50).
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Say you could rewind time, and make it so your unbelieving son or daughter 'found the light' and got into Heaven instead of you - but it could only happen if you told God you wanted it to happen. You'd suffer in hell for eternity, but either way you'd still be on a different side of the gulf. I bet most people will say 'no' because, they will say, they love God more than their child (and the point of this thread is not to say there's anything wrong with that) and being with the Lord is more important. But, the catch is, if you chose not to go through with it you'd be mentally tormented by the fact your child was in excruciating pain in some 'lake of fire' for ever (God wouldn't wipe away any tears or wipe your memory). Would you still do it? And what's say God gives you a third option, that he just snuffs you out and niether of you would get to Heaven. Would you rather this third option rather than have your own flesh and blood being poked by demons (to use a cartoonish metaphor) and despairing in some spiritual darkness even if you got to go to Heaven?
And what about if we took it further, what about a village of starving African villagers? Would you undergo this punishment so this village of 200 can escape being damned? What about 2,000, 200,000 people? Would anything be worth the sacrifice for you?
Hi Trimac,
I haven't read all the posts yet (7 pages in one day!!), and I'm sure it will be interesting.
In my opinion, you have touched on the very Spirit of Christ: self-sacrifice.
The way I see things today, most Christians are not interested in self-sacrifice, or they don't think such behavior is "necessary," or they think that only Jesus could reach such unselfishness.
Yet the Scriptures teach us to become Christ-like, hence the word, "Christian."
I grew up on the whole Bible not just the New Testament, and the whole notion of eternal torment simply destroys god's image in so many ways, as does the notion of Universal Reconciliation. One portrays God as unmerciful and the other portrays God as one who could care less about your free will. Eternal destruction shows mercy in allowing eternal rest, while also respecting a person's freedom to reject God.
Halfnelson, your halfway there.
How can there be a complete victory over death if eternal death is real?
You can yell and type colorful posts all you want, like you did in post #44, but your cut and paste comments help no one.
I'll give a very common example of people's experiences with religion around the world, and I'll make it a nice one and leave out any offensive details, which the Church really just can't handle.
Child is abused sexually and/or physically. Child is told that Jesus loves them and so they sing their broken heart out every Sunday. Child turns into confused and beaten down teen who is then told that God is sovereign, which teen mulls over in head. Teen is told that they are pretty much worthless and any good they do is as much worth as a woman's monthly bloody rags. Teen/adult is then told that unless they worship God and understand men's doctrines, they will be set on fire for eternity or abandoned by love for eternity.
Something is wrong..........
Fruits of the Spirit, Mike.
God is love, Mike.
Something is wrong.
You know what I think? I think the Catholic church did a terrible thing and the Protestant church picked it up. All you are carrying around in your copy and pastes are Zoroastrianism and Greek mythology. That's it.
The weeping and gnashing? That's for the religious leaders and those who think they understand who God is and keep others from ever understanding.
Something is very wrong. The fact these ET'ers will scoff at this very post is proof.
The soul is immortal. It does not die (Matthew 10:28). When the unbeliever's soul rejoins his body when it is resurrected at the end of the Millennium, he is sent into the lake of fire where he will reside forever (Revelation 20:11-15).
Man owes God perfect righteousness. Man cannot meet that requirement. Therefore, the Second Person of the trinity became a perfect man who could meet that requirement qualifying Him to pay the penalty for man's sins. Anyone who rejects Christ as Savior must stand on his own relative righteousness which God must reject. Since the unbeliever will continue to exist forever, his suffering and torment which will be the natural consequences of eternal existence separated from God, in addition to being in the presence of the countless other people who have rejected Christ, all of whom will be suffering, and the fire, and the hopelessness of his situation, will result in eternal torment. He will have brought it all upon himself.
In Matthew 10:28, the word translated as 'destroy' is the Greek word Apollumi, and does not mean cessation of existence. It does not mean the loss of being. It means the loss of 'well-being'. It means to be brought to a state of utter ruin and eternal uselessness in the place of everlasting torment where there will be 'weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:42,50).
Sorry, but Jesus is quoted in Matthew 10:37-39 as saying
37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;
Sorry but that sounds like a very stuck up self important Jesus to me. It's not the Jesus I know. The scripture you quote has the self-important tainting of man and some man's ego who re-wrote Jesus' words to fit some self absorbed agenda.
Those are not the sentiments of a prophet that Christians proclaim to be all loving.
Sorry but that sounds like a very stuck up self important Jesus to me. It's not the Jesus I know. The scripture you quote has the self-important tainting of man and some man's ego who re-wrote Jesus' words to fit some self absorbed agenda.
Those are not the sentiments of a prophet that Christians proclaim to be all loving.
Because you don't like what it says that means it has been rewritten?
He is God. God is worth giving up everything for and if you love someone more than God then there is a definite problem.
Because you don't like what it says that means it has been rewritten?
He is God. God is worth giving up everything for and if you love someone more than God then there is a definite problem.
Oh really?
So loving my daughter more than anything is a definite problem? I live each day thanking God for her life. We appreciate the beauty and magnificence of life every day. We have reason to. What we are not doing is waiting for the "after life" to appreciate life and give thanks. I believe in God, but not in the way you do. I am loving life today. God gave me the greatest gift of my life, my daughter. I cherish the day, everyday.
Those who choose to believe that Jesus will not accept/save you from "hell" simply because you choose to love your family first and foremost are free to have that belief. I'm not one to tell you otherwise.
I'm just a simple, happy, thankful soul who lives in the moment. I don't put my heart and life and focus on what will happen the day I die. I focus on the gifts I have today. God given gifts. I think God is happy that I appreciate what he has given me today. Because the Jesus I beleive in is self-less like that, not self centered.
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